Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

It was put forward as agriculture, it led to long working hours, division of labour, dietary issues, reduced height and lifespan.
And agricultural policy was one reason for brexit

You are right of course, but you know me, and a mad reaction is one of the dangers that come with me!
I really don't want to go back to living on Rations if that is considered a smart idea! there are a lot more mouths to feed these days!

 

[Zlatan]

The really worrying scenario is we dont leave and we dont stay..ie a soft brexit.
We should either forget about the whole thing, say the referendum was ,as KTM says ,advisory and play a full part in eu...or we must leave fully and get on with it..There really cant be half in...one or other. We should all be telling government for God's sake decide and do it.

 

[Zlatan]

Once again your lack of research is showing, I have expressed many times on here that even if there were a guarantee of economic success over Brexit, the social damage caused to the future development of society is I.M.H.O the real killer to the idea of going back to being an inward looking frightened little society.
I really have little interest other than that, as economics are really something where we seem to be able to fudge and get away with it, so frankly even if these people are at a genius level regarding economics they cannot change society for the better.
My interest is in the future of the people of this nation, not the economy which is simply a tool not a philosophy.
If the Human race collapses back into a tribal society over mere money then we are truly doomed.
I don't have to try to discredit Brexit, as it is totally devoid of any credibility, and even if it was gold plated and came with a brass band offers Nothing whatever to the advancement of the Human Race.
For someone who didn't vote in the Referendum, you have some very strange views, but there's nothing wrong in that.
Two choices face the Human Race, fragment and simply repeat the old antagonisms and wars, or join together into, eventually a world order where wars are a thing of the past.
Brexit is simply the Future refusing to be born
When this country was the richest in the world the poor lived short disease riddled lives and starved, but the economy boomed.
I.M.H.O

That's a fair comment OG. Didn't realise you took that stance and I do agree with you...but I don't think staying or leaving will really change number of folk in poverty...thats another issue ,one which should be more of a priority than all this BS about in or out...( IMHO) Perhaps you ain't that mad..

 

[oldgroaner]

The really worrying scenario is we dont leave and we dont stay..ie a soft brexit.
We should either forget about the whole thing, say the referendum was as KTM says is advisory and play a full part in eu...or we must leave fully and get on with it..There really cant be half in...one or other. We should all be telling government for God's sake decide and do it.

I agree completely

 

[oldgroaner]

That's a fair comment OG. Didn't realise you took that stance and I do agree with you...but I don't think staying or leaving will really change number of folk in poverty...thats another issue ,one which should be more of a priority than all this BS about in or out...( IMHO) Perhaps you ain't that mad..

Steady there or you will ruin my reputation, just when we were becoming friends!
My view is I agree very long term, but I am a Humanist for my sins, and quite mad.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Boris has just announced to four EU ambassadors that he is in favour of 'FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE'
Theresa May seems to risk the economy of our country just so that she can control immigration and now her Foreign Secretary has stated that he wants free movement,unbelievable!!!!
The EU ambassadors must be wondering what the UK really does want and actually I must say does anyone in the UK know what we want.
We are making ourselves look very foolish to the world.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Totally agree Kudos,, I wonder how many are bending to public demand and noise. Time to forget it...or do it.

 

[flecc]

We should all be telling government for God's sake decide and do it.

The government did decide long ago, and so did parliament, lower and upper house. The decision was to be in the EU and stay in the EU. Only one party with a single MP disagreed with that.

The idiot Cameron decided to ignore that overwhelming will and ask an ill-informed electorate instead.

The chaotic result was entirely predictable.
.

 

[flecc]

Whatever his failures there is an obvious depth of knowledge unlikely to be found on here....You dismiss his thoughts to justify your own.
Do you really think you know more about economics than he does ???

I expected exactly this common defective answer.

In no way did I imply a superior knowledge or even any knowledge of economics, nor do I claim any now.

Read my post, I judged the outcomes, not the means, and as a recipient of the outcomes I am entitled to do that. For whatever reason, Minford's record is of failure, and typically for this country he has received honours for that.
.

 

[Zlatan]

And I suppose so as Lyons, Hargreaves and King. And what about Lord Mayors investigation or Capital report ?
If we were judging folk on their failures there,d be no fecker in government.
And because argument was expected makes it no less valid.
Churchill made a fiasco at Galipoli, his opinion was still respected.
This is exactly the problem at moment. Remainers discredit every positive outlook of brexit and justify it, then espouse their own theories.
If you want to know about football ask Fergie. About economics ask Minford, King,Lyons and Hargreaves.Then take a concensus. The consensus was economically uk would not suffer long term under brexit, it might even prosper.That was a FACT flecc.
But no doubt you,d rather believe the theories put forward on here.

 

[flecc]

About economics ask Minford, King,Lyons and Hargreaves.Then take a concensus. The consensus was economically uk would not suffer long term under brexit, it might even prosper.That was a FACT flecc.

I'm not believing anyone's opinions on the outcome of Brexit, I don't know what it will be. Based on our history and some other facts I have an opinion that it is a worse option economically than remaining.

But it's just that, an opinion formed from known factors, but with no assumption of the predictive knowledge that experts in the economics field claim.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

And I suppose so as Lyons, Hargreaves and King. And what about Lord Mayors investigation or Capital report ?
If we were judging folk on their failures there,d be no fecker in government.
And because argument was expected makes it no less valid.
Churchill made a fiasco at Galipoli, his opinion was still respected.
This is exactly the problem at moment. Remainers discredit every positive outlook of brexit and justify it, then espouse their own theories.
If you want to know about football ask Fergie. About economics ask Minford, King,Lyons and Hargreaves.Then take a concensus. The consensus was economically uk would not suffer long term under brexit, it might even prosper.That was a FACT flecc.
But no doubt you,d rather believe the theories put forward on here.

Quote 'Remainers discredit every positive outlook of brexit and justify it'
Would someone please tell us what are the positive outlooks of Brexit?
Leavers seem to be blinkered,whatever bad outcome we remainers suggest and try to constructively argue that outcome, then leavers just ignore it and say 'we won ,let's get on with triggering Article 50 and we should all jump over the cliff.
Would anyone sign a contract that was all blank pages,yet that is what Theresa May is intending when she triggers Article 50... any solicitor would think we were crackers.
Boris wants the sack,he can then come out as a Remainer,point out that Theresa May is incompetent,has no plan and should not be trusted. She will have to resign and Boris can put himself forward as PM.....amazing clever outcome if he achieves his end game.
Another nail in the coffin of Brexit.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

Totally agree Kudos,, I wonder how many are bending to public demand and noise. Time to forget it...or do it.

So what do we do?
Prevaricate, we are British after all
You made an interesting point there, but have the Government decided to listen to SOME of the people?
With no one leading the charge against Brexit, and without an allegedly popular Political party and powerful Press on it's side , that would be a truly remarkable and unexpected outcome.
Public Demand? Noise? all those things are the modus operandi of the Brexit camp.
Unless of course the old adage
"Methinks thou dost protest too much" applies to the Murdoch Press, and has actually proven counter productive in some fashion.
It can't be very reassuring to the Brexit voters to find their main champion is such a Turncoat.
If ever a thing was going to bury a cause this sort of treacherous behaviour is a classic example.
The charge that they have been lied to and misled can no longer be denied, can it?
Faith in the honesty of politicians must be at the lowest point in our benighted History.
The people they listen to are, have been and always will be their paymasters, and nothing whatever to do with the voting public.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

Boris has just announced to four EU ambassadors that he is in favour of 'FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE'
Theresa May seems to risk the economy of our country just so that she can control immigration and now her Foreign Secretary has stated that he wants free movement,unbelievable!!!!
The EU ambassadors must be wondering what the UK really does want and actually I must say does anyone in the UK know what we want.
We are making ourselves look very foolish to the world.
KudosDave

My post 7328 covers this predictable behaviour!
"Surely the ultimate expression of Democracy is to be on all sides at one and the same time?"
Works for me..... well actually no, but that's Boris

 

[oldgroaner]

The Telegraph provides us with a much needed smile

Classic!

 

[oldgroaner]

Quote 'Remainers discredit every positive outlook of brexit and justify it'
Would someone please tell us what are the positive outlooks of Brexit?
Leavers seem to be blinkered,whatever bad outcome we remainers suggest and try to constructively argue that outcome, then leavers just ignore it and say 'we won ,let's get on with triggering Article 50 and we should all jump over the cliff.
Would anyone sign a contract that was all blank pages,yet that is what Theresa May is intending when she triggers Article 50... any solicitor would think we were crackers.
Boris wants the sack,he can then come out as a Remainer,point out that Theresa May is incompetent,has no plan and should not be trusted. She will have to resign and Boris can put himself forward as PM.....amazing clever outcome if he achieves his end game.
Another nail in the coffin of Brexit.
KudosDave

I have come out in favour of triggering article 50, as jumping off a cliff is not only the quickest way of reaching the dazzling Brexit Breach, but also is a great way to make an impression on the public participating.
Those that chose to remain atop the cliff will benefit from watching the spectacle, alas of course they will all be EU residents, across the channel, nonetheless they at least will benefit from our self sacrifice, as it will discourage others from attempting Human Powered flight unaided by machines, and with no visible means of support. (other than Hot air)
I.M.H.O etc, etc.

 

[oldgroaner]

The joys of belonging to a large community and taking back control

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1713292868924867

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Brexit is simply the Future refusing to be born

perfect, summary.

have you seen this video...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2016/nov/30/sleaford-lincolnshire-brexit-byelection-young-video

 

[Zlatan]

Quote 'Remainers discredit every positive outlook of brexit and justify it'
Would someone please tell us what are the positive outlooks of Brexit?
Leavers seem to be blinkered,whatever bad outcome we remainers suggest and try to constructively argue that outcome, then leavers just ignore it and say 'we won ,let's get on with triggering Article 50 and we should all jump over the cliff.
Would anyone sign a contract that was all blank pages,yet that is what Theresa May is intending when she triggers Article 50... any solicitor would think we were crackers.
Boris wants the sack,he can then come out as a Remainer,point out that Theresa May is incompetent,has no plan and should not be trusted. She will have to resign and Boris can put himself forward as PM.....amazing clever outcome if he achieves his end game.
Another nail in the coffin of Brexit.
KudosDave

We both know if anything was said approaching positive for brexit it would be ridiculed on here..but like wise why on earth is it ( or appears to be) etched in stone that free market is inextricably linked to free movement. Folk make out its the cornerstone of eu, civilisation and all that's good..when infact its far from any. Yes its great for well to do,s to get cheap help, in my area you can now get your car valeted for £10 ( putting quite a few businesses out of business) or your house decorated for £50 a room. All bordering on exploitation whilst the home countries these workers arrive from are drastically short of any workers( just look at what's happening in Lithuania) and hence investment.
Yep leaving presents problems but so does staying. It cant carry on as is, and perhaps yes we should have stayed and negotiated these problems away, but it seems every single government is totally incapable of doing so.( especially Cameron)
With NHS on breaking point, education in inner city schools appalling,our roads worst in Europe,national debt growing, corrupt government, eu failing in many areas, no help from eu which has proved itself equally corrupt or more so than uk( Juhnkers!!),the rich getting richer and poor poorer how can anyone be surprised at the leave vote ?? The country is in a mess, the EU more so. So why stay?? What are benefits of staying to keep things as they are !!??

 

[flecc]

why on earth is it ( or appears to be) etched in stone that free market is inextricably linked to free movement.

I did answer your previous request for an answer to it, but you appear to have ignored my answer.

To repeat, it's inextricably linked in the express case of the EU, since the EU intention is to become one country called Europe. And countries have free internal movement of their citizens as a fundamental.

I'll add another factor. Free movement of goods and services must include the people, since their input is a service. If they are not included, there isn't free movement of services, it's restricted movement.
.