Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
You've contributed 17,000 posts all saying the same old shite.
Were has it got you?
Brexit and a majority Tory government.
I wonder which of us has come out ahead.
Look at these slightly more objectively...
1) We don't live in a democracy
Your Parliament is supreme,and is voted in by universal suffrage,so in general terms it is democratic. However it is not Representative. In that the ratio of seats is not proportional to the popular vote.
2) The vote in 2016 was 'a fraud'
Two points, it was basically a dead heat. of 38,000,000 votes cast, had 600,000 voted differently, the decision would have been different.
There were fraudulent practices involved..the use of DUP unaudited funds for an advertisement spread in London, was totally outside the spirit of the legislation
3) We voted to leave in 2016 because:
- The Russians made us do it
- Facebook made us do it
- Dominic Cummings made us do it
Unless one has convincing reasons that less than 600,000 people were affected by these methods then a strong maybe.
4) Boris Johnson always lies
He must occasionally tell the truth, ..Even lying about a lie is an inadvertent truth.
5) The Mirror, Independent and Guardian are reliable sources of information
Not aware of the Mirror, but the Guardian seems ok to me, and the Express is extremely informative on matters archeological and astronomical
6) The media control everything (or was it Cummings again - I can't remember)
Of course they do,or at least try..It is their bread and butter. The traditional mass media are having a harder time adjusting to the social media, personal approach and customised messaging ,which are not open to scrutiny, press councils etc.
7) People want to 'rejoin' already
That is undoubtedly true, I have spoken with English cousins. However I also sense a feeling of resignation to the inevitable...which bring one back to point 1. The majority of people in the UK EP elections did vote for non Brexit leaning candidates
8) Etc
1) We don't live in a democracy
Your Parliament is supreme,and is voted in by universal suffrage,so in general terms it is democratic. However it is not Representative. In that the ratio of seats is not proportional to the popular vote.
2) The vote in 2016 was 'a fraud'
Two points, it was basically a dead heat. of 38,000,000 votes cast, had 600,000 voted differently, the decision would have been different.
There were fraudulent practices involved..the use of DUP unaudited funds for an advertisement spread in London, was totally outside the spirit of the legislation
3) We voted to leave in 2016 because:
- The Russians made us do it
- Facebook made us do it
- Dominic Cummings made us do it
Unless one has convincing reasons that less than 600,000 people were affected by these methods then a strong maybe.
4) Boris Johnson always lies
He must occasionally tell the truth, ..Even lying about a lie is an inadvertent truth.
5) The Mirror, Independent and Guardian are reliable sources of information
Not aware of the Mirror, but the Guardian seems ok to me, and the Express is extremely informative on matters archeological and astronomical
6) The media control everything (or was it Cummings again - I can't remember)
Of course they do,or at least try..It is their bread and butter. The traditional mass media are having a harder time adjusting to the social media, personal approach and customised messaging ,which are not open to scrutiny, press councils etc.
7) People want to 'rejoin' already
That is undoubtedly true, I have spoken with English cousins. However I also sense a feeling of resignation to the inevitable...which bring one back to point 1. The majority of people in the UK EP elections did vote for non Brexit leaning candidates
8) Etc
Well I shall be happy with Brexit if all the promises come true
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=all+vote+leave+referendum+videos&&view=detail&mid=95EAEB977CB2AB85244C95EAEB977CB2AB85244C&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=/videos/search?q=all+vote+leave+referendum+videos&FORM=HDRSC3
In my own case feelings haven't come into it, nor even very much of a logical process. As I've made clear in many posts I'm only concerned with facts, and indeed my post that started this thread 3460 posts ago was only about facts, hence the thread title.
I've posted the undeniable facts before, but here for the first time I'll repeat them together:
1) With the enforced loss of our Empire and it's captive market following WW2, our industries and much of our commerce collapsed into rapid decline. This left us in a parlous state by the early 1970s. Our two corrective actions then were joining the Common Market and bringing in the IMF to run the economy through the rest of the '70s.
2) Those corrective actions gradually turned us around, the IMF balancing the books and EU actions and subsidies enabling new manufacturing here for the tariff free EU market. A notable example was Nissan at Sunderland in 1984, starting a process that brought in other car manufacturers from Japan, France and Germany and now China.
3) Throughout our 47 years of EU membership those opposed to the EU within politics and business have maintained that our EU membership prevents us trading worldwide outside of EU trade deals. This is demonstrably untrue, since many EU nations trade freely and very successful thoughout the whole world. Notable examples are Germany, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, France and Italy. Even our own JCB proves it can be done well. The only reason we cannot do like them and complain instead is simply because we are almost entirely not good enough, either at doing it or because we don't have enough of what others want.
4) Getting advantageous trade deals with the EU, or anyone else for that matter is very difficult, as this thread's opening post shows. Having had nearly half a century without negotiating such deals leaves us ill equipped to do so, as our struggles with the experienced EU negotiators in the Brexit negotiations shows only too well.
5) Trade deals with the EU for outsiders do not include Services. Since we are very heavily dependent on our sales of services to the EU, leaving the EU has a severe loss of trading over time built in.
It is solely those facts that made me a Remainer. If I'd ignored the facts and gone on feelings alone instead, I would probably have been a Leaver.
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Kettles and pots , using words like verbatim should be verboten
Not you, you now have the worst liar of a Prime minister ever with a sidekick about to wreak havoc in the ranks of the Civil Service, and because your incompetent Prime minister has painted himself into a corner over an extension period, we are about to face a cliff end no deal Brexit.
And you have to be taking the mickey by asking which of us has come out ahead?
Hilarious!
it's pity your feelings make you post this way, missing the obvious.
I've just posted on this link the ways in which we've failed and continue to fail.
Just bleating make Britain Great again, getting back sovereignty and telling those revealing the failures not to talk down won't correct anything.
When we fail, the first step in correcting that failure is admitting to it, not denying it.
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Fascinating
- We live in a representative democracy not a true one
- Correct the vote was a fraud and would have been annulled if it hadn't been advisory only
- The leave vote was gained from the following -A generation long campaign blaning the EU for UK Government errors and bad policies- a highly successful propaganda campaign of lies and false promises
- Boris Johnson doesn't even know when he's lying!
- You can't prove that people don't want to rejoin already can you? and when things go wrong they certainly will
- The top 19 Brexit lies are here
Where is the money coming from?
They will simply be dropped as impractical.
Sorry, but like the majority of people, I expect promises to be honoured in full.
Nothing less is acceptable, just to protect offshore tax dodgers assets.
A serious question. In what way are you now ahead? I know that we will leave the EU, which is a victory for those who wanted to carry out the act of leaving, but what will the act of leaving deliver for you, which then puts you ahead?
Neither did you. You havent made 17000 posts. You, ve made 2 posts 8500 times each. And thats been generous, its probably more like one post 17,000 times.
And we, ve had to read them all FFS.
Not taking the mickey, just looking at the 'facts'.
You have made 17,000 posts on this thread, all saying the same.
I've made a few dozen, all saying the same.
I wanted Brexit and a Tory government.
You, presumably, wanted neither.
We have both.
So who has what they want?
It's harder to imagine a more catastrophic defeat from your point of view.
Good luck to you If you find wasting more than three years of your life posting on here only to come out losing hilarious.
I think it sits somewhere on that line between and comedy and tragedy.
There can only be a loser if there is a winner, and you can only win if you achieve the prize, the goal or the aspiration.
So what have you won? I keep asking but it’s almost like you don’t know, which I can’t believe. You must know what you voted for? What outcome you wanted? Surely? Look, I’ll lower the bar a bit more, give me your top two. Two laws which you want to make or change and two trade deals you would like to see struck, but EU membership is preventing. That must be dead easy to answer.
More than a little premature, Brexit could well prove catastrophic fo all of us.
That's if we do leave of course, if we strike a deal anything like the two versions seen so far, it's leaving in name only and ending up in something like EFTA, membership with no say.
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We have a poster who only joined yesterday to rehash a question in a long running and at times tetchy thread.
This is known as trolling.
I cannot be bothered to indulge a troll.
Other members may feel differently and can make up their own minds.
This is known as trolling.
I cannot be bothered to indulge a troll.
Other members may feel differently and can make up their own minds.
What a shame you didn't understand my posts, Since it was obvious that at some point Brexit would go ahead, my most favoured outcome was for a no deal Brexit, as this would prove a sharp lesson to the public, however any kind of Brexit will prove a lesson in the long run, just take longer.
No, I'm not the loser, you are, when this mad idea goes bottom up, my conscience will be clear, with no regrets, for it will have turned out as I anticipated.
History is always to more integration between nations, and without our presence you have in fact gifted the fate of Europe to the strongest nation.
Germany.
Congratulations, for increasing the power of Germany at our expense.
Not you,nor me, just the German people are the winners
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And they are the ones we will have to beg to be let back in!
Now who is the winner?
Only the rich with their offshore banking tax swindles
Also if you had actually read my posts, I said it was in Labours best interest NOT to be in power while Brexit is sorted out.
Let the villains of the piece carry the blame.
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Only to some out of retirement to "indulge in a little gloating"?
I like that , it's very funny!
Of course there is the rather sad fact that we were founder members of the EFTA, and when it couldn't compete with the Common Market, abandoned it to join what became the EU!
I wonder if the EFTA members harbour any resentment about that?