Brexit, for once some facts.

[Nev]

A poll of Labour party members has suggested he is first choice as the leader in all regions of the UK, all age groups and all social classes. Here is the link.

Poll of Labour members suggests Keir Starmer is first choice

Exclusive: shadow Brexit secretary early frontrunner to succeed Jeremy Corbyn

www.theguardian.com

Unless BJ makes a massive mess of everything then I don't think any Labour leader is going to win the next election but I think KS has the best chance of all the possible Labour leadership candidates who have so far expressed an interest in running.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

That it may take a year or two to leave the hideously overblown organisation is another good reason for doing so.

Has the “hideously overblown” organisation had a detrimental affect on you personally? Something which you can attribute directly to it’s overblowness?

I’m just curious to know. I hear a lot of general sweeping statements such as “the corrupt EU” or “free to make our own laws and trade deals”. But, I hear nothing about what is actually corrupt, which new trade deals people want to strike, or which new laws it is that people would like made. I hear even less about how the EU currently prevents this from happening.

Are you able to explain any of the above to me? Nobody that I talk to who supports leaving seems to know. I would have thought that answers to these questions would have been sitting on the lips, ready to real (reel) off. You must know why you want to leave?

 

[RobF]

ready to real off. You must know why you want to leave?

Perhaps we will get an improved education system which teaches its students to spell.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

Perhaps we will get an improved education system which teaches its students to spell.

OK, I used a misspelling, I now know where I went wrong. Thank you.

Your turn now. Enlighten me regarding all of those new laws and new trade deals that you want to see, and which the EU currently prevents us from enacting or doing. I won’t make it difficult, just list your top 5 of each.

You do know why you want to leave don’t you? I mean, you do have a brain which knows why it causes you to do things? Things like voting to leave?

I look forward to reading your top five. Good luck!

 

[RobF]

You will have a long wait if you think I am prepared to rehash the same, tired, arguments for your benefit.

Read the preceding 3,459 pages if you are that interested.

Nor am I remotely interested in your snotty insults.

 

[OxygenJames]

Blimey, I see the 'facts' are still coming thick and fast.

Only one matters now.

We're leaving.

Rob you're right to put 'facts' in inverted commas.

According to OG the 'facts' are as follows:

1) We don't live in a democracy
2) The vote in 2016 was 'a fraud'
3) We voted to leave in 2016 because:
- The Russians made us do it
- Facebook made us do it
- Dominic Cummings made us do it
4) Boris Johnson always lies
5) The Mirror, Independent and Guardian are reliable sources of information
6) The media control everything (or was it Cummings again - I can't remember)
7) People want to 'rejoin' already
8) Etc....

He does have - thank god - some redeeming qualities though. He can paint - has a good eye for a photograph - and self-lessly looks after his ailing wife.

But.

When it comes to 'facts' - it's probably best looking elsewhere.

 

[RobF]

I didn't know about OG's ailing wife.

Slow health deterioration is not nice - I have a dose myself - so he and his wife have my genuine sympathy there.

Politically we are never going to agree, but I have a grudging admiration for his posting stamina.

I reckon he's made about 17,000 posts in this thread, all saying the same thing, but that's still a lot.

One also wonders to what end, given that we are leaving.

 

[Zlatan]

A poll of Labour party members has suggested he is first choice as the leader in all regions of the UK, all age groups and all social classes. Here is the link.

Poll of Labour members suggests Keir Starmer is first choice

Exclusive: shadow Brexit secretary early frontrunner to succeed Jeremy Corbyn

www.theguardian.com

Unless BJ makes a massive mess of everything then I don't think any Labour leader is going to win the next election but I think KS has the best chance of all the possible Labour leadership candidates who have so far expressed an interest in running.

He isnt liked by McCluskey and is viewed amongst many of party as a Blairite. Historically with labour being the favourite means you have no chance? Personally think he, s a step in right direction, just not big enough. Party needs to sack the lot and start again. Get Campbell back on board. Might be disliked but a very clever bloke and talks sense, which is rare these days for anybody in Labour party. (I know he isnt, Corbyn expelled him)

 

[OxygenJames]

Has the “hideously overblown” organisation had a detrimental affect on you personally? Something which you can attribute directly to it’s overblowness?

I’m just curious to know. I hear a lot of general sweeping statements such as “the corrupt EU” or “free to make our own laws and trade deals”. But, I hear nothing about what is actually corrupt, which new trade deals people want to strike, or which new laws it is that people would like made. I hear even less about how the EU currently prevents this from happening.

Are you able to explain any of the above to me? Nobody that I talk to who supports leaving seems to know. I would have thought that answers to these questions would have been sitting on the lips, ready to real (reel) off. You must know why you want to leave?

OK Barry. I get where you're coming from. And yes you're right I bet very few people could come up with decent answers to those questions - and you'd then think well why the F are we leaving?

Here's your problem. And it's not an easy one to get around - though accepted in a way I will agree with you this problem should not exist - as in - people should not think or act like this - but they do.

Ready?

OK here goes: People do not make decisions purely based on rational stuff - on logic - on practicalities - on things you can 'prove'. They should perhaps - but they don't. People actually act and behave and decide based much more on - you're going to hate this - gut feeling.

Horrible huh? Those stupid stupid people! Gut feeling??!!! Ha. What a joke. Maybe. Perhaps. But they do.

So they voted on a gut feeling - the gut feeling about sovereignty - on keeping our decision makers (ie rulers) - as close to us as possible - about being able to control our own laws - about being able to stop people coming into our country if we want to stop them.

NONE of which anybody here - or anywhere - can necessarily put our fingers on the actual practical reality of those things - because like I say - it was more of a gut feeling thing.

And an English thing.

The English have that in them - they're nationalists in many ways - and nationalism (which does not equate to being a fascist xenophobic nazi btw) - nationalism comes into it in a big way too.

So.

That's the best response I have for you right now.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

You will have a long wait if you think I am prepared to rehash the same, tired, arguments for your benefit.

Read the preceding 3,459 pages if you are that interested.

Nor am I remotely interested in your snotty insults.

I wasn’t aware that I’d insulted you. I’m sorry if you find my enquiry as to why you voted leave insulting. You seemed very passionate about leaving, so I just thought you would be able to quickly and easily, trot off 5 new laws and 5 new trade deals that you would like to see and which EU membership currently prevents.

I’ve been lurking these pages for a while and there is nothing which answers these questions, just general meaningless statements like “overblown EU.” What does that mean?

Look, if you are pressed for time and a busy man, I’ll make it even easier, just give your top three of each. Six lines isn’t too arduous is it?

 

[OxygenJames]

Politically we are never going to agree, but I have a grudging admiration for his posting stamina.

You can say that again - just when I think we have these remainers licked he comes back with a string of 8-10 posts repeating pretty much verboten exactly what he's said a million times before and I shake my head in disbelief and resign myself to losing this war.

 

[OxygenJames]

I wasn’t aware that I’d insulted you. I’m sorry if you find my enquiry as to why you voted leave insulting. You seemed very passionate about leaving, so I just thought you would be able to quickly and easily, trot off 5 new laws and 5 new trade deals that you would like to see and which EU membership currently prevents.

I’ve been lurking these pages for a while and there is nothing which answers these questions, just general meaningless statements like “overblown EU.” What does that mean?

Look, if you are pressed for time and a busy man, I’ll make it even easier, just give your top three of each. Six lines isn’t too arduous is it?

Barry one other problem you face - is that dripping sarcasm you're using. Great stuff I love to use it myself - but you see it was that kind of talking down to people that lost you the vote in the first place.

People don't like being belittled - they tend to get their revenge sooner or later - often - at the ballot box.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

OK Barry. I get where you're coming from. And yes you're right I bet very few people could come up with decent answers to those questions - and you'd then think well why the F are we leaving?

Here's your problem. And it's not an easy one to get around - though accepted in a way I will agree with you this problem should not exist - as in - people should not think or act like this - but they do.

Ready?

OK here goes: People do not make decisions purely based on rational stuff - on logic - on practicalities - on things you can 'prove'. They should perhaps - but they don't. People actually act and behave and decide based much more on - you're going to hate this - gut feeling.

Horrible huh? Those stupid stupid people! Gut feeling??!!! Ha. What a joke. Maybe. Perhaps. But they do.

So they voted on a gut feeling - the gut feeling about sovereignty - on keeping our decision makers (ie rulers) - as close to us as possible - about being able to control our own laws - about being able to stop people coming into our country if we want to stop them.

NONE of which anybody here - or anywhere - can necessarily put our fingers on the actual practical reality of those things - because like I say - it was more of a gut feeling thing.

And an English thing.

The English have that in them - they're nationalists in many ways - and nationalism (which does not equate to being a fascist xenophobic nazi btw) - nationalism comes into it in a big way too.

So.

That's the best response I have for you right now.

A good answer actually and probably hits the nail.

It’s actually what I thought. People are disconnected with what they currently have and are angry / frustrated with a lot of things in society. Leaving the EU is a change, the country will be changed. I can’t predict what those changes will be, but I can’t see what new trade deals will become available or which laws need to be made or changed because the EU previously prevented us from doing so.

I think, gut feeling is an honest answer.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

Barry one other problem you face - is that dripping sarcasm you're using. Great stuff I love to use it myself - but you see it was that kind of talking down to people that lost you the vote in the first place.

People don't like being belittled - they tend to get their revenge sooner or later - often - at the ballot box.

Fair do’s. I get a little frustrated when people skirt the issue / question.

 

[flecc]

Perhaps we will get an improved education system which teaches its students to spell.

Nothing to do with the EU, entirely the UK's fault where such literacy problems exist.

The education standards in the major EU countries are far higher, as I personally know and the league tables clearly show. Leaving the EU is much more likely to allow us to sink to the even lower standards pre joining.
.

 

[OxygenJames]

Fair do’s. I get a little frustrated when people skirt the issue / question.

I know. That's the real challenge in the end - to find some point of connection with people - even though at times you simply can not resist (and I am not saying you should either btw) - throwing insults or sarcasm or whatever at them.

Everybody has arrived at the decision they made through some logical process in their own minds or feelings - to dismiss them as stupid or not worthy only drives them deeper into their positions.

And anyway - we're good at hurling insults here - we've all developed pretty thick skins so don't be too concerned with letting it all hang out.

 

[oldgroaner]

Matters not.

What does matter is more than three years of pointless parliamentary 'scrutiny' is over.

We have started the endgame, which is all Tory voting public expect.

That it may take a year or two to leave the hideously overblown organisation is another good reason for doing so.

Great joke, but you just voted in a hideously antisocial Tory party of incompetents

 

[oldgroaner]

iyho.

Nothing humble about my opinion

 

[RobF]

Nothing to do with the EU, entirely the UK's fault where such literacy problems exist.

The education standards in the major EU countries are far higher, as I personally know and the league tables clearly show. Leaving the EU is much more likely to allow us to sink to the even lower standards pre joining.
.

No doubt education is much better in Europe, isn't everything?

I do wish some people who are so keen to talk down our country would take advantage of free movement while it still exists.

And here's another thing, if the UK is such a dump, why are so many people prepared to literally risk life and limb to get here?

Perhaps they are all stupid and didn't realise how much better it would have been had they'd stayed the other side of the English Channel.

 

[Woosh]

And here's another thing, if the UK is such a dump, why are so many people prepared to literally risk life and limb to get here?

First there is the language.
Also, UK offers easy access to social provisions (health, education, driving licence etc) and it's the easiest country to set up a self employed business.
How many people would ask: are you an illegal immigrant if they want someone to wash their windows?
That's why brexiters blame the wrong people.
The EU citizens are not the problem, the social system is.