Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

There wont be a viable, electable opposition in foreseeable future.
Lets face it how on earth could Tories be worse than they were with May and Labour couldnt beat them.
Its been said for months now. For our democracy to wotk at all it needs an electable, viable second party. Without one its no longer a democracy. We havent had an opposition party for 3 years now and it looks like we wont be gettiing one. It doesnt matter what the second party is called but system needs one. At moment we have one major, dominant party and 4 or 5 also rans. The dominant party in that situation can almost do as it pleases.
Thank Corbyn, Momentum, Unite and McCluskey for that.
How on earth electorate is to blame when we had choice of Tories or the shambles called labour.

Not our "Democracy" as we don't have one. We have "representative" Democracy, where the winning team in a popularity contest wins everything and the rest end up with nothing.
This simply isn't democratic, every MP that gets elected should be part of the government apparatus in order to represent his or her constituents.
Otherwise the rest of the country that did not vote for the lucky winners of the popularity contest are totally robbed of the right to be represented, and that for a period of five years.
Archaic and stupid and the end result? a useless government pursuing a dangerous course with no possibility of common sense prevailing, and if there isn't a change, by voting for them people have in fact doomed themselves to being ruled by a cabal of liars and swindlers for a generation.
But it won't last that long. "Strong and stable" "taking back control" "A glorious future"
"Food will be cheaper" "Britain will boom" "The elderly will be cared for" The NHS protected" "New Hospital Built" "Fishing grounds opened up"
These things had better be delivered, does anyone really believe they will ?

 

[50Hertz]

Things are not so simple as that
"“The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.”
There is far more at stake this time and if it goes wrong the public will be seeking someone to blame.

...and so it came to pass that the public were told to blame the EU, and the public blamed the EU and so the Boris ruled.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yep, they, ll blame Corbyn. He didnt oppose leaving, Tories or Boris. Public will remember, and be reminded if its the case, Corbyn hasnt supported a single EU initiative in 25 years and he had leave in his 2017 manifesto but got annhilated in 2019 when he didnt..
Besides, come on OG, all Tories will do if it goes arse over elbow is point at Diane Abott and ask "Do you really think this MP can get country out of an economic mess".
No matter what happens now Labour as it stands will never ever get in power.
And what a terrible stand for you to take. You want country to fail so Labour can get power. I dont. I want country to prosper and Labour to win on its own merit, not be awarded result for Tories failing.
I told you months ago Labour was doomed. Oh no you lot said. Corbyn playing long game, boxing clever. Blah, blah, blah. They have gone. Ruined by dogmatic left.

Whoah there you really do live in a world of your own! I don't WANT the country to fail, it simply WILL for obvious reasons.
As to who runs it I really don't see any difference between your version of labour, which I never voted for anyway
Why have a Pink Tory party? you may was well vote for the Blue one, but I won't do that either.
I didn't vote for Labour in the hope that they could make Brexit work, as all that can be achieved there is at best a shabby shadow of what we could have in the EU.
I voted in the hope of a Referendum, nothing more or less.
What happens now depends on two things

1. How badly the Government fails to make Brexit a big success
2. How the Public reacts, and how they choose to do so.

Neither of those things are desirable, simply unavoidable.

 

[Zlatan]

Not our "Democracy" as we don't have one. We have "representative" Democracy, where the winning team in a popularity contest wins everything and the rest end up with nothing.
This simply isn't democratic, every MP that gets elected should be part of the government apparatus in order to represent his or her constituents.
Otherwise the rest of the country that did not vote for the lucky winners of the popularity contest are totally robbed of the right to be represented, and that for a period of five years.
Archaic and stupid and the end result? a useless government pursuing a dangerous course with no possibility of common sense prevailing, and if there isn't a change, by voting for them people have in fact doomed themselves to being ruled by a cabal of liars and swindlers for a generation.
But it won't last that long. "Strong and stable" "taking back control" "A glorious future"
"Food will be cheaper" "Britain will boom" "The elderly will be cared for" The NHS protected" "New Hospital Built" "Fishing grounds opened up"
These things had better be delivered, does anyone really believe they will ?

Oh, yes I never thought of that... (sarcastic face)
And so what?
You really think even if he doesnt do everything promised Labour are any more electable. Ofcourse not. We, ve had Tory austerity, failing NHS, increased pension ages, women having pension cash stolen from them, pound lowest for decades, ftse stagnant for 10years etc etc and country still voted for a sex mad untrustworthy bloke who rugby tackles 8 year olds, dangles from cables, is mates with Trump and asdociates female Asians to letter boxes over Labour. Tories cant do any worse OG but they just won an 80 seat majority. Wake up OG. There isnt and wont be a second party to take reins. unless they start watching videos, listening to voters and changing.

And, you definitely want country to fail to be proven right over Brexit. You can lie about it but you cant hide this fact. But, I, m telling you, even if it does (which it wont BTW) Tories will keep power.
There simply is no alternative. Fact.
Labour are just as set in their ways as you are and about as likely to change. If they dont change we, ll have Tories indefinitely.

 

[oyster]

Profumo - a member of the Bullingdon club. Anyone see any other parallels?

 

[oldgroaner]

Oh, yes I never thought of that... (sarcastic face)
And so what?
You really think even if he doesnt do everything promised Labour are any more electable. Ofcourse not. We, ve had Tory austerity, failing NHS, increased pension ages, women having pension cash stolen from them, pound lowest for decades, ftse stagnant for 10years etc etc and country still voted for a sex mad untrustworthy bloke who rugby tackles 8 year olds, dangles from cables, is mates with Trump and asdociates female Asians to letter boxes over Labour. Tories cant do any worse OG but they just won an 80 seat majority. Wake up OG. There isnt and wont be a second party to take reins. unless they start watching videos, listening to voters and changing.

And, you definitely want country to fail to be proven right over Brexit. You can lie about it but you cant hide this fact. But, I, m telling you, even if it does (which it wont BTW) Tories will keep power.
There simply is no alternative. Fact.
Labour are just as set in their ways as you are and about as likely to change. If they dont change we, ll have Tories indefinitely.

Do give over! you are simply repeating this mournful self pity ,which is pointless
There is much more at stake than the fact you regret having voted for Brexit and want someone to rescue you.
The Labour Party will either get it's act together or fail.
Noting either of us can do about that, so what is the point of this obsession you have with them.
What will make a difference is when the media changes sides and cons the public in a different direction, after all the only reason Blair got into power wasn't his appeal to the voters, so much as the voters hated the corrupt Torys and the media decided to back him.
otherwise he would have failed.
Time you faced reality.
Who controls the media controls the country

 

[oldgroaner]

Taking back control
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/french-company-wins-licence-to-monitor-british-fishing-boats-5dk8wp6gr?utm_source=bestforbritain.org

French company wins licence to monitor British fishing boats
Brexiteers have long hailed the “sea of opportunity” that awaits British fishermen and women after the UK leaves the EU — but now it has emerged that their boats will be monitored by a French company.

The business that won the tender to track UK fishing vessels wherever they operate, as well as foreign-licensed boats in British waters, is Collecte Localisation Satellites (CLS),
a French maritime surveillance provider.

The contract was awarded by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) in late summer having previously been held by a British firm, Globavista.

You really couldn't make this up, it's so funny!

 

[Zlatan]

Do give over! you are simply repeating this mournful self pity ,which is pointless
There is much more at stake than the fact you regret having voted for Brexit and want someone to rescue you.
The Labour Party will either get it's act together or fail.
Noting either of us can do about that, so what is the point of this obsession you have with them.
What will make a difference is when the media changes sides and cons the public in a different direction, after all the only reason Blair got into power wasn't his appeal to the voters, so much as the voters hated the corrupt Torys and the media decided to back him.
otherwise he would have failed.
Time you faced reality.
Who controls the media controls the country

Rubbish. All of it. Especially the media excuse.

The revolution has started,Labour coming together under a new slogan for us all to face thw future with and turf the Tories out of power with.
"Progressive Patriotism".
I, m not sure those words arent mutually exclusive but hey its Wrong Daily's new motto. So here we go.
If Starmer gets leadership, well its a start.(but he wont, he, s too clever and posh and Blairlike for Momentum) But rest.... Its a joke. Tories laughing for next 10 years.

 

[50Hertz]

Labour, the joke which keeps on delivering.

 

[oldgroaner]

Rubbish. All of it. Especially the media excuse.

The revolution has started,Labour coming together under a new slogan for us all to face thw future with and turf the Tories out of power with.
"Progressive Patriotism".
I, m not sure those words arent mutually exclusive but hey its Wrong Daily's new motto. So here we go.
If Starmer gets leadership, well its a start.(but he wont, he, s too clever and posh and Blairlike for Momentum) But rest.... Its a joke. Tories laughing for next 10 years.

How strange you really don't see do you?
Elections are simply a popularity contest, and the media sell the party it wants in power, if you don't think that's true,, how do you explain Brexit? it was won by propaganda, nor facts.

 

[oldgroaner]

Labour, the joke which keeps on delivering.

Actually Johnson does the joke making in these parts, now we have given the French authority over British Ships in the North Sea.
What next will be given away to the "Johnny Foreigners"? because it's cheaper to have them do our security jobs?
Conservatives, the obscene joke which keeps on delivering.
"Take back Control"
And give it to the French"

Bang goes his support among the fishing community!

 

[50Hertz]

How strange you really don't see do you?
Elections are simply a popularity contest, and the media sell the party it wants in power, if you don't think that's true,, how do you explain Brexit? it was won by propaganda, nor facts.

I don't think people pay that much attention to newspapers these days. You only need to read the DM's comments section to see that.

More recently, I have tended to listen to politicians during interviews. Diane Abbott, Dawn Butler, Rebecca Wrong-Daily, Johnny Mac, JC himself, they all must go. Hopeless people.

 

[Zlatan]

How strange you really don't see do you?
Elections are simply a popularity contest, and the media sell the party it wants in power, if you don't think that's true,, how do you explain Brexit? it was won by propaganda, nor facts.

Perhaps you should read Goodwin and watch video. Sort of stuck in a grove OG. Move on. Times have changed.
How much influence does Mail, Express, Telegrapj, BBC etc etc have over you. Zero. Does media influence Flecc, 50,Woosh,Agnew, Fingers, myself. No none of us. It influences this pretend group in peoples minds. In reality it has very little effect on anybody. Wife gets Mail for puzzles. Sports coverage is ok.
Blaming media is a cop out and says to political parties there is no need to change.
Fact of matter is the electorate are being lectured to by Labour and media. Thought for the fecking day from BBC. Its rubbish. Yestetday's news. Todays fish wrappers. Political comments on FB are detested by most and totally ignored.
Trouble is Labour still think its 1960 and preach workers rights and god knows what other injustice to folk witj investments on Stock Market. (Stock Market investers outnumber Labour Party members about 7 to 1.)
I, d guess 50% of current Labour party members have accounts with some stock broker. The world has moved on, Tories have realised, voters have realised, Labour has not.
So stop blaming media, it infers voters are gullible. Some are, but not 80% of them. Its the useless politicians, specifically Labour, their cronyism, their reluctance to learn, their dogma and their outdated ideology. (Unite especially)
Amazing how you blame media and then refuse to read or watch it, except ofcourse the mail. Think you are their most avid reader. And, what does it do? Push you the other way, which is what Corbyn has done to millions.
In his bumbling, none PC, offensive attitude BJ is actually a breath of fresh air unlikely to lecture any of us.

 

[Woosh]

how do you explain Brexit? it was won by propaganda, nor facts.

brexit was won by the conservatives.

 

[Danidl]

Taking back control
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/french-company-wins-licence-to-monitor-british-fishing-boats-5dk8wp6gr?utm_source=bestforbritain.org

French company wins licence to monitor British fishing boats
Brexiteers have long hailed the “sea of opportunity” that awaits British fishermen and women after the UK leaves the EU — but now it has emerged that their boats will be monitored by a French company.

The business that won the tender to track UK fishing vessels wherever they operate, as well as foreign-licensed boats in British waters, is Collecte Localisation Satellites (CLS),
a French maritime surveillance provider.

The contract was awarded by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) in late summer having previously been held by a British firm, Globavista.

You really couldn't make this up, it's so funny!

Well I assume they had to. Despite all the posturing and noise,the UK is still a full member of the EU and accepts all the privileges and duties of membership. So it would be illegal to discriminate against a better offer on grounds of nationality

 

[Danidl]

Perhaps you should read Goodwin and watch video. Sort of stuck in a grove OG. Move on. Times have changed.
How much influence does Mail, Express, Telegrapj, BBC etc etc have over you. Zero. Does media influence Flecc, 50,Woosh,Agnew, Fingers, myself. No none of us. It influences this pretend group in peoples minds. In reality it has very little effect on anybody. Wife gets Mail for puzzles. Sports coverage is ok.
Blaming media is a cop out and says to political parties there is no need to change.
Fact of matter is the electorate are being lectured to by Labour and media. Thought for the fecking day from BBC. Its rubbish. Yestetday's news. Todays fish wrappers. Political comments on FB are detested by most and totally ignored.
Trouble is Labour still think its 1960 and preach workers rights and god knows what other injustice to folk witj investments on Stock Market. (Stock Market investers outnumber Labour Party members about 7 to 1.)
I, d guess 50% of current Labour party members have accounts with some stock broker. The world has moved on, Tories have realised, voters have realised, Labour has not.
So stop blaming media, it infers voters are gullible. Some are, but not 80% of them. Its the useless politicians, specifically Labour, their cronyism, their reluctance to learn, their dogma and their outdated ideology. (Unite especially)
Amazing how you blame media and then refuse to read or watch it, except ofcourse the mail. Think you are their most avid reader. And, what does it do? Push you the other way, which is what Corbyn has done to millions.
In his bumbling, none PC, offensive attitude BJ is actually a breath of fresh air unlikely to lecture any of us.

Boy ,have you got it wrong. The mass media are called that for a reason. They mediate the world for the masses, and that includes both you and I .They determine the colour of your shirts, the diameter of the leg of your jeans , whether you are incensed by climate change or just see it as an infringement on your rights to eat beef. It is when you don't realise that they do this that they are most effective
I am not going to get into British Party Politics, but I will confine my self to this. You Zlatan, have an almost unique property on this forum for blaming third parties for not conforming to some idealised concept of behaviour. You went on a tirade against Mr, Junkers, against Luxembourg for being successful, against the EU for localised corruption in Spain, and now against the Labour Party for not conforming with some model you have .
If you voted Tory ..your choice, live with it.
If you voted Lib Dens , then that was the centralist party
If You voted Labour ..your choice
If you did not vote, then you lose the right to comment

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't think people pay that much attention to newspapers these days. You only need to read the DM's comments section to see that.

More recently, I have tended to listen to politicians during interviews. Diane Abbott, Dawn Butler, Rebecca Wrong-Daily, Johnny Mac, JC himself, they all must go. Hopeless people.

Then how do you explain voting for Boris and ending up supporting any kind of Brexit Cummings cares to come up with?
You just lost an argument with yourself.

 

[50Hertz]

Then how do you explain voting for Boris and ending up supporting any kind of Brexit Cummings cares to come up with?
You just lost an argument with yourself.

Because that is a better outcome than a Corbyn, Butler, Abbott, Wrong-Daily, etc, etc , etc government. How many more times?

 

[Zlatan]

Boy ,have you got it wrong. The mass media are called that for a reason. They mediate the world for the masses, and that includes both you and I .They determine the colour of your shirts, the diameter of the leg of your jeans , whether you are incensed by climate change or just see it as an infringement on your rights to eat beef. It is when you don't realise that they do this that they are most effective
I am not going to get into British Party Politics, but I will confine my self to this. You Zlatan, have an almost unique property on this forum for blaming third parties for not conforming to some idealised concept of behaviour. You went on a tirade against Mr, Junkers, against Luxembourg for being successful, against the EU for localised corruption in Spain, and now against the Labour Party for not conforming with some model you have .
If you voted Tory ..your choice, live with it.
If you voted Lib Dens , then that was the centralist party
If You voted Labour ..your choice
If you did not vote, then you lose the right to comment

I totally agree with almost everything you say, I, m such a cad, especially the bit about losing right to comment if you didn't vote. Just remind us how you voted in election or referendum. Oh thats right you didnt. So follow your own advice and shut up. (as you told me to a few days ago)
Think the phrase is mind your pwn fecking business.

 

[flecc]

Because that is a better outcome than a Corbyn, Butler, Abbott, Wrong-Daily, etc, etc , etc government. How many more times?

In your humble opinion perhaps?

We don't know how either would perform yet.
.