Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Happy Christmas to all the regular contributors to this thread.
I look in every day and have learned a lot and been amused a lot!

Being a Scottish Nationalist and pro remain, I do worry for the future though.

Don't worry this Brexit thing is just another campaign bus that has got stuck in a lay by temporarily and end up being towed to a scrap yard in the fullness of time.
Wouldn't it be fitting if Scotland became independent, remained in the EU and attracted the Japanese car makers there?

Alba gu bràth my friend

 

[Danidl]

Oh dear, you really do seem to lack any practical experience in this area. Illiterate people are often very clever in hiding their disadvantage and have no such problem.

Someone who is still a good friend to this day was a warehouseman in the last company I joined. A good reliable employee and a driving licence holder, I later moved him up to a truck driver position which he also performed well, delivering all over Southern and Eastern England for me.

One day he asked me for some advice on a multi page government form he needed filled in. Helping him with that I discovered to my astonishment that he couldn't read to any usable extent, yet for some five years he'd be doing a job involving stock control and navigating over a vast area of the country in the pre SatNav days, effectively hiding his problem.

Together with another staff member I helped him with that over time and he quickly learnt sufficiently to function reasonably well independently.

He completed 17 years employment with me and today runs a large chain of flats in South London for a wealthy investor, collecting rents where necessary, arranging maintenance and repairs, doing that for almost two decades now.

It's an illustration of how a onetime illiterate person can function well while hidden but also go on to achieve. That's no surprise to me since I have other examples where I've had employees supposedly with dyslexia and or discalculia, but those easily overcome. I've long since learnt never to underrate on the superficial evidence.

I'm confident that many of those estimated 660,000 can perform as well, given the chance.
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Sorry Flecc, it might have helped if you had read what I had written . Not what you interpreted what I had written. For what is now the nth time to.. where n is some where like 6 , I said that illiterate people two and one generation ago, where better placed to to occupy places in society than nowadays , where even to get a job placement one has to display a certain level of literacy. I corrected 50 who was interpreting what I said was implying that such people were not smart. . If anything your example illustrates my point.

 

[oldgroaner]

I found the perfect friend for OG:


View attachment 33496

And one for you

Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf
Iraqi diplomat
Pretty much the same style as Johnson's EU negotiation technique

And just as stupid

 

[flecc]

I said that illiterate people two and one generation ago, where better placed to to occupy places in society than nowadays , where even to get a job placement one has to display a certain level of literacy.

So now you've once again changed the subject, this time to better placement in society.

Changing the subject midstream like this is is hardly honest.

Earlier in the discussion you said this:

" What I continue to say is that one and two generations ago, the ability to be illiterate and non numerically competent was masked. Now there are LESS of those jobs now."

There are as I've clearly shown and several have agreed on the presented evidence, an abundance of jobs available for anyone, regardless of ability.

And in that extract and before you made no mention of a position in society. You only argued that there were less jobs for the unqualified than formerly, which is as shown simply untrue. There are now more jobs for the unskilled and even the illiterate than ever before in our lifetimes.

I rest my proven case.
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[Danidl]

So now you've once again changed the subject, this time to better placement in society.

Changing the subject midstream like this is is hardly honest.

Earlier in the discussion you said this:

" What I continue to say is that one and two generations ago, the ability to be illiterate and non numerically competent was masked. Now there are LESS of those jobs now."

There are as I've clearly shown and several have agreed on the presented evidence, an abundance of jobs available for anyone, regardless of ability.

And in that extract and before you made no mention of a position in society. You only argued that there were less jobs for the unqualified than formerly, which is as shown simply untrue. There are now more jobs for the unskilled and even the illiterate than ever before in our lifetimes.

I rest my proven case.
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Happy that you have. I have basically said the same thing any number of different ways,in what I hoped would be understood.
I NEVER equated ability with literacy..that is a construct from 50 and now yourself. He used the word smart.
What I continue to assert is that getting into the job interview, and holding even the job beyond the probation stage NOW requires literacy skills which were not required generation(s) ago. This includes such jobs as care assistant.

 

[flecc]

What I continue to assert is that getting into the job interview, and holding even the job beyond the probation stage NOW requires literacy skills which were not required generation(s) ago. This includes such jobs as care assistant.

You clearly have a very strange understanding of the English language if you think that is a continuation of what you've posted before on job availability. Of course there are many jobs that require literacy and more at all stages, I've never disputed it. But that wasn't this discussion until you changed the subject from your false claim that there were less jobs for the illiterate and unskilled.
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[oldgroaner]

The Express leads with a home grown Fairy story
"
Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit ‘powerhouse economy’ to flourish for TEN YEARS – study finds
BORIS JOHNSON’S Brexit Britain will be among the world's leading powerhouse economies throughout the next ten years, a major new report predicts today. UK finances, manufacturing and services are so fundamentally strong that the country is set to stay near the top of the international economic league table and will dwarf France’s economy.

Major new report and where did it come from?
The impressive sounding CEBR
And what manner of beast are they?

Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR)
https://cebr.com

• Cebr is one of the UK's leading economics consultancies. We provide research to support thought leadership and maintain a speciality in the analysis of ...
• 
  
• propaganda

And they are in a small office in London, but the did manage three google stars and these ratings
"
Mark A
100 reviews
2 years ago
You would be better off putting options into a hat and picking one blindfold in my honest opinion. I say these consultants are to forecasts what a pin is to a donkey.

4

Simon Wallace
Local Guide · 15 reviews · 3 photos

And yet they rate Front page in the Express? says it all really

And among the usual reader comments is this rather telling one
"Odd that this claimed research is not on the CEBR website. All the research that is seems to paint a rather gloomy picture... Perhaps the DE have been cherry picking and quoting data out of context, safe in the knowledge that their readers will not bother to fact check anything that seems to reinforce their confirmation bias.

 

[OxygenJames]

Not in my situation and that has nothing to do with Brexit

Whatever the problem is it's only a problem when you're thinking about it.

I'll just leave that one right there for you to ponder.

 

[OxygenJames]

The Express leads with a home grown Fairy story
"
Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit ‘powerhouse economy’ to flourish for TEN YEARS – study finds
BORIS JOHNSON’S Brexit Britain will be among the world's leading powerhouse economies throughout the next ten years, a major new report predicts today. UK finances, manufacturing and services are so fundamentally strong that the country is set to stay near the top of the international economic league table and will dwarf France’s economy.

Major new report and where did it come from?
The impressive sounding CEBR
And what manner of beast are they?

Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR)
https://cebr.com

• Cebr is one of the UK's leading economics consultancies. We provide research to support thought leadership and maintain a speciality in the analysis of ...
• 
  
• propaganda

And they are in a small office in London, but the did manage three google stars and these ratings
"
Mark A
100 reviews
2 years ago
You would be better off putting options into a hat and picking one blindfold in my honest opinion. I say these consultants are to forecasts what a pin is to a donkey.

4

Simon Wallace
Local Guide · 15 reviews · 3 photos

And yet they rate Front page in the Express? says it all really

And among the usual reader comments is this rather telling one
"Odd that this claimed research is not on the CEBR website. All the research that is seems to paint a rather gloomy picture... Perhaps the DE have been cherry picking and quoting data out of context, safe in the knowledge that their readers will not bother to fact check anything that seems to reinforce their confirmation bias.

It would really mess with your head if it all turned out well wouldn't it! Ha. You really are a card.

 

[OxygenJames]

It would really mess with your head if it all turned out well wouldn't it! Ha. You really are a card.

The truth is - you'd actually be happier if it all failed.

You'd prefer to be right than be happy.

 

[oyster]

The Express leads with a home grown Fairy story
"
Boris Johnson’s post-Brexit ‘powerhouse economy’ to flourish for TEN YEARS – study finds
BORIS JOHNSON’S Brexit Britain will be among the world's leading powerhouse economies throughout the next ten years, a major new report predicts today. UK finances, manufacturing and services are so fundamentally strong that the country is set to stay near the top of the international economic league table and will dwarf France’s economy.

Major new report and where did it come from?
The impressive sounding CEBR
And what manner of beast are they?

Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR)
https://cebr.com

• Cebr is one of the UK's leading economics consultancies. We provide research to support thought leadership and maintain a speciality in the analysis of ...
• 
  
• propaganda

And they are in a small office in London, but the did manage three google stars and these ratings
"
Mark A
100 reviews
2 years ago
You would be better off putting options into a hat and picking one blindfold in my honest opinion. I say these consultants are to forecasts what a pin is to a donkey.

4

Simon Wallace
Local Guide · 15 reviews · 3 photos

And yet they rate Front page in the Express? says it all really

And among the usual reader comments is this rather telling one
"Odd that this claimed research is not on the CEBR website. All the research that is seems to paint a rather gloomy picture... Perhaps the DE have been cherry picking and quoting data out of context, safe in the knowledge that their readers will not bother to fact check anything that seems to reinforce their confirmation bias.

I thought they usually claimed a thousand years for these regimes?

 

[50Hertz]

Sorry Flecc, it might have helped if you had read what I had written . Not what you interpreted what I had written. For what is now the nth time to.. where n is some where like 6 , I said that illiterate people two and one generation ago, where better placed to to occupy places in society than nowadays , where even to get a job placement one has to display a certain level of literacy. I corrected 50 who was interpreting what I said was implying that such people were not smart. . If anything your example illustrates my point.

‘All I said was that you don’t need to be smart to shovel $h!t, which you don’t. There may well be some smart people shovelling $h!t, but it’s not essential.

Too many people are going into buildings masquerading as universities these days. They aren’t academics, these people are being conned out of £27K for an easy to obtain and useless qualification. Or they are being tricked into paying for training which used to be free by calling it a degree, Nursing Degree for example.

Don‘t misquote me in future.

 

[50Hertz]

Happy that you have. I have basically said the same thing any number of different ways,in what I hoped would be understood.
I NEVER equated ability with literacy..that is a construct from 50 and now yourself. He used the word smart.
What I continue to assert is that getting into the job interview, and holding even the job beyond the probation stage NOW requires literacy skills which were not required generation(s) ago. This includes such jobs as care assistant.

Oi, stop misquoting me, I never said that. Stop being a pillock and accept that you are wrong, yet again, and don’t use other people to camouflage your own shortcomings.

You are talking BS. The railways employ a huge amount of illiterate workers, many trained in prisons, to manually replace track ballast, replace small sections of track, tighten loose track bolts and many other tasks. Conversely many post graduates work in jobs such as tea shop maids because they have chosen an easy degree subject which is of absolutely no use to an employer. They should not have attended university, if they had entered the workplace at 16, they would be £30K+ better off and have 5 years pension contributions banked. There are countless other examples.

Now cut out the silliness.

 

[oyster]

The railways employ a huge amount of illiterate workers, many trained in prisons, to manually replace track ballast, replace small sections of track, tighten loose track bolts and many other tasks.

Is it actually possible to pass the mandatory railway safety training and basic skills while being illiterate?

 

[50Hertz]

Is it actually possible to pass the mandatory railway safety training and basic skills while being illiterate?

Quite possibly. Sessions of presentations where the information is given verbally and visually, followed by a knowledge check, which can be in the form of an interview & practical, to make sure it’s sunk in. It happens all the time. I’m a City & Guilds assessor in Learning and Development (I have no idea how it happened or why), and what I have described is a recognised method for just such instances.

Lack of numeracy and literacy skills is not a barrier to entering a workplace where those skills are not used. It’s the responsibility of the training regime to devise methods of imparting essential safety information to those lacking literacy and numeracy, and checking their understanding. To not do so would be discriminatory. It’s actually quite easy to do if you use ingenuity, imagination and creativity. I guess that’s why Danny Boy finds it difficult and is constantly erecting unnecessary barriers and complications.

 

[Danidl]

Oi, stop misquoting me, I never said that. Stop being a pillock and accept that you are wrong, yet again, and don’t use other people to camouflage your own shortcomings.

You are talking BS. The railways employ a huge amount of illiterate workers, many trained in prisons, to manually replace track ballast, replace small sections of track, tighten loose track bolts and many other tasks. Conversely many post graduates work in jobs such as tea shop maids because they have chosen an easy degree subject which is of absolutely no use to an employer. They should not have attended university, if they had entered the workplace at 16, they would be £30K+ better off and have 5 years pension contributions banked. There are countless other examples.

Now cut out the silliness.

Nice you should mention railways.and ballast. Just before Christmas, I was at the local station waiting for my train, and noticed this activity on going. It involved 1 site engineer ,1 Dumpster Driver, 1 JCB Driver..the JCB being mounted on a bogey so that the power wheels of the JCB could drive the bogey on the. . adjacent track and a supply lorry . Not a shovel in sight except the hydraulic arm on the JCB. ,The dumpster sprayed the balllast, then the JCB gently and with great finesse rearranged it to pile over the rails. Then gently profiled it ,scraping any still on the track. I doubt any of these people were illiterate,in either a functional or literal sense. There are plenty of newsreels showing that type of activity in the 1950s and yes there were squads of labourers hauling material including railway tracks.That was then not now.

As before, I did not misquote you . You used the phrase .. "you don't have to be smart to shovel..". The implication,however intended, that being that illiterate equated with dumb.
If one went back to my original response to the flecc and my reference to agricultural work, it should be seen as illustrative not definitive. So office cleaning, and paving and tarring are just urban equivalents.
The point I continue to have to make is that society is no longer geared to serve a population who are illiterate. One cannot use the services of libraries, of dictionaries, of web browsers, of Facebook without being minimally competent. You would be unable to come in here daily to insult me without these skills.

 

[50Hertz]

Nice you should mention railways.and ballast. Just before Christmas, I was at the local station waiting for my train, and noticed this activity on going. It involved 1 site engineer ,1 Dumpster Driver, 1 JCB Driver..the JCB being mounted on a bogey so that the power wheels of the JCB could drive the bogey on the. . adjacent track and a supply lorry . Not a shovel in sight except the hydraulic arm on the JCB. ,The dumpster sprayed the balllast, then the JCB gently and with great finesse rearranged it to pile over the rails. Then gently profiled it ,scraping any still on the track. I doubt any of these people were illiterate,in either a functional or literal sense. There are plenty of newsreels showing that type of activity in the 1950s and yes there were squads of labourers hauling material including railway tracks.That was then not now.

As before, I did not misquote you . You used the phrase .. "you don't have to be smart to shovel..". The implication,however intended, that being that illiterate equated with dumb.
If one went back to my original response to the flecc and my reference to agricultural work, it should be seen as illustrative not definitive. So office cleaning, and paving and tarring are just urban equivalents.
The point I continue to have to make is that society is no longer geared to serve a population who are illiterate. One cannot use the services of libraries, of dictionaries, of web browsers, of Facebook without being minimally competent. You would be unable to come in here daily to insult me without these skills.

For some reason you are still getting it wrong. You don’t have to be smart to shovel ****. You don’t, that’s a fact, it takes no education. From that point onwards, you have reverted to type and gone off at a complete tangent to make assumptions and extrapolations which are wrong, and not what I said, and false.

The railways employ huge numbers of manual muscle to shift ballast, tighten track bolts remove and replace bits of damaged track. I see teams of them regularly. They bus them in using Network Rail mini busses. They’re dressed in bright orange, you can’t miss them.

You are the absolute master of misunderstanding, over complication and getting things wrong. In fact until you came along, there had never been a more wrong situation since Mr Wrong, the head of BBC light entertainment, thought it would be a good idea for Jimmy Saville to host a TV programme working with children. Your wrongness must surely be a purposeful act. I do not believe that it is possible to be so wrong so often about so many things by accident. The probabilities simply do not stack up.

 

[flecc]

yes there were squads of labourers hauling material including railway tracks.That was then not now.

Not only is 50Herz correct in what he's posted and I've seen for myself, you are wrong on this in a way you probably wouldn't know.

The London Underground continuous track replacement program over it's large network is entirely manual in the middle of the nights. Each individual rail and concrete sleeper is carried into position manually by lines of labourers, then they are fitted manually by the engineers. That's simply because there is no room in the confines of the small tunnels for mechanical handling, other than transport to the vicinity.
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[flecc]

Is it actually possible to pass the mandatory railway safety training and basic skills while being illiterate?

You might be surprised at how capable functionally illiterate people can be. I certainly have been on a few occasions, people can be very clever in cunning ways at hiding their disadvantages.

Remember that universal education is very recent, for many centuries vast numbers of illiterate people got by just fine, creating the country we live in.
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[50Hertz]

You might be surprised at how capable functionally illiterate people can be. I certainly have been on a few occasions, people can be very clever in cunning ways at hiding their disadvantages.

Remember that universal education is very recent, for many centuries vast numbers of illiterate people got by just fine, creating the country we live in.
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I don’t have a document to hand to check, but I’m pretty sure that self assembly furniture such as that supplied by Ikea doesn’t need any degree of literacy to assemble. The assembly instructions, sometimes quite complex, are pictorial and drawn in a sequence. I’ve seen training packages designed and constructed in the same way, aimed at literate and non literate workers. This type of instruction/ training can be supplemented with on-line videos and computer graphic interactive tasks. It can be done.