Brexit, for once some facts.

[trex]

we need the ability to negotiate alternative trade deals. How else can we see what the alternatives are if we are stuck inside the fortress?
The EU will need to reform itself to stop its citizens opting for the likes of Mr Trump. It will have to decide if it wants to be a United States of Europe or a looser confederation with a proper mechanism and protection for countries like the UK that want to distance themseves from a superstate.

 

[oldgroaner]

we need the ability to negotiate alternative trade deals. How else can we see what the alternatives are if we are stuck inside the fortress?

Why? we already have all that we need in the way or Markets where we are now, and not all that much to sell in any case, as no one gives a damn about manufacturing competitively in this country, do they?
It will not work out well, for even if there are any opportunities we lack the means to exploit them.

 

[trex]

I agree that we don't have much to sell and no one gives a damn about manufacturing competitively in this country but we still need to protect the weak and the lesser educated of this country. Inside EU, there is no wall.
For the EU to survive, there must be proper mechanism to ensure employment for all without resorting to mass migration. They try to do that with regional development funds but that effort is so little that a country like Lithuania sends half of their graduates to other EU countries. It's not fair nor sustainable for Lithuania. Most of Lithuanian graduates come to the UK, outperform the locals, great for them but not so great if you happen to be competing against them. Don't underestimate also the issue of language. I don't have problem with French or German or Spanish or Italian or Portuguese but I can't catch a word in Polish or Lithuanian.

 

[Croxden]

I can swear in Polish.

Speaking to an immigrant once asking him about learning English he said the first words were the expletives.

Perhaps that's all the brexiters need?

 

[oldgroaner]

I agree that we don't have much to sell and no one gives a damn about manufacturing competitively in this country but we still need to protect the weak and the lesser educated of this country. Inside EU, there is no wall.
For the EU to survive, there must be proper mechanism to ensure employment for all without resorting to mass migration. They try to do that with regional development funds but that effort is so little that a country like Lithuania sends half of their graduates to other EU countries. It's not fair nor sustainable for Lithuania. Most of Lithuanian graduates come to the UK, outperform the locals, great for them but not so great if you happen to be competing against them. Don't underestimate also the issue of language. I don't have problem with French or German or Spanish or Italian or Portuguese but I can't catch a word in Polish or Lithuanian.

There is a slight hope of improvement inside the EU
None whatever outside with noting to curb exploitation of the poor, what few changes for the good that have come about in my lifetime cannot be attributed to the actions of the UK Government.
It has all been either due to Union action or EU legislation.

 

[oldgroaner]

ITMA in the Daily Star
"
SHOCK DEFECTION? UKIP boss Nigel Farage refuses to rule out joining Tories
UKIP top dog Nigel Farage appears to be brooding over the possibility of defecting to the Tory party."
Another display of integrity and loyalty, having served the Tory cause all along the time is due to ditch UKIP like a snake's old skin as past it's sell by date and latch like any parasite will to a new host he can take over.
And he believes finally get to be an MP.
Who knows? one day this creature could be the Prime Minister, riding on a wave of second hand glory and popularity.

 

[Croxden]

I understood that come a successful Brexit the UKIP party would be dissolved. Most of them were tories so merging back with them seemed obvious to me.

 

[trex]

There is a slight hope of improvement inside the EU
None whatever outside with noting to curb exploitation of the poor, what few changes for the good that have come about in my lifetime cannot be attributed to the actions of the UK Government.
It has all been either due to Union action or EU legislation.

I have no doubt that the EU is leading the world on issues like exploitation. You, I and many well educated folks have never been victim of it. However, there are plenty of victims of globalization here, in the UK. They need trade walls. I am fully aware that brexit left to the hardliners will want to knock down even more walls and push for further globalization, that's why we will want to campaign for a soft brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

I have no doubt that the EU is leading the world on issues like exploitation. You, I and many well educated folks have never been victim of it. However, there are plenty of victims of globalization here, in the UK. They need trade walls. I am fully aware that brexit left to the hardliners will want to knock down even more walls and push for further globalization, that's why we will want to campaign for a soft brexit.

Sorry but that's the last thing we need, the poor will suffer even more than they do now

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[tillson]

In principle I certainly have nothing against such a compromise, but suggest that if that is agreed, what reason remains to leave the EU?

There are some aspects of the EU which I don't have an issue with. Other aspects I think are unnecessary and unpopular, not only in the UK but to a wider population across the EU as a whole.

I would not have any objections to remaining part of a reformed EU. By reformed, I mean in the proper sense, not a David Cameron type pretend reform.

 

[anotherkiwi]

There are some aspects of the EU which I don't have an issue with. Other aspects I think are unnecessary and unpopular, not only in the UK but to a wider population across the EU as a whole.

I would not have any objections to remaining part of a reformed EU. By reformed, I mean in the proper sense, not a David Cameron type pretend reform.

Hallelujah! But isn't that true about all institutions?

Any institution is best reformed from the interior. No, electing UKIP/FN/what have you to perform obstruction is not going to speed reform. Constructive intelligent ideas presented by progressive MEPs will get a better hearing, the greens have proven that.

 

[trex]

Sorry but that's the last thing we need, the poor will suffer even more than they do now

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

not with a soft brexit. The Pound will strongly recovers in such a scenario.

 

[tillson]

Hallelujah! But isn't that true about all institutions?

Any institution is best reformed from the interior. No, electing UKIP/FN/what have you to perform obstruction is not going to speed reform. Constructive intelligent ideas presented by progressive MEPs will get a better hearing, the greens have proven that.

I do not believe that they listen or have any willingness to act unless their backs are against the wall. Mrs Merkel has started to change the language she uses with regard to the free movement of people within the EU. That would have been unthinkable pre-Brexit.

I have never been against compromise, life is full of compromises. But they must be meaningful and not false.

I think the remainers should be listened to as they represent a significant proportion of the vote, but that does not mean that we should reject BREXIT in its entirety and treated just as an advisory outcome which can be ignored.

 

[trex]

Any institution is best reformed from the interior. No, electing UKIP/FN/what have you to perform obstruction is not going to speed reform. Constructive intelligent ideas presented by progressive MEPs will get a better hearing, the greens have proven that.

how will you do that with UKIP representing the UK in the EU parliament?
No, the EU will do better in a soft brexit scenario, without our MEPs.

 

[trex]

...
that we should reject BREXIT in its entirety and treated just as an advisory outcome which can be ignored.

Sorry Tillson, I think brexit is only advisory but MPs should represent fairly the view of their constituencies rather than their own view. Where they can make things better is to use their education and intelligence to debate objectively and get us out of the present predicament where the Pound loses 20% of its value for nothing.

 

[derf]

I agree that we don't have much to sell and no one gives a damn about manufacturing competitively in this country but we still need to protect the weak and the lesser educated of this country. Inside EU, there is no wall.
For the EU to survive, there must be proper mechanism to ensure employment for all without resorting to mass migration. They try to do that with regional development funds but that effort is so little that a country like Lithuania sends half of their graduates to other EU countries. It's not fair nor sustainable for Lithuania. Most of Lithuanian graduates come to the UK, outperform the locals, great for them but not so great if you happen to be competing against them. Don't underestimate also the issue of language. I don't have problem with French or German or Spanish or Italian or Portuguese but I can't catch a word in Polish or Lithuanian.

i don't mean to sound a complete corbynite - but shouldn't we spend more on education and fair treatment of low income workers across the board. how much of the poor's plight is due to migration and how much is down to lovely lords and tory donors like Philip green robbing them under a tory regime robbing them us and everyone of basic services and pretty much all else? if its mainly the latter wouldn't a more ethical framework of employment mostly address the "poor and the weak's" predicament. aside from that, are they in fact the "poor and the weak" or are they really the "benefit scrounging native daytime telly watching part-time crack and cocaine sellers who don't like work but like getting everything for nothing and blaming foreigners if they don't get what they want a lot"?

 

[anotherkiwi]

I have been watching for years as France's industrial jobs have been shipped off to other shores leaving the workers high and dry. Most can't take up other employment because:

1. there aren't any other jobs in the area
2. they haven't been trained/educated to be able to do anything else

So they fall down the social ladder and into alcohol etc and are then blamed for not having work. It is their fault that the jobs they had were off-shored and their fault they can't find another one because they drink too much etc. They should move to another part of the country where there is work. Try moving a family without money, I have, it isn't very easy... And I didn't have roots to begin with, or a mortgage on a house I had bought when I had a decent job that has become unsalable because there is no one with any money to buy it any more...

Poverty is the fault of the poor is the biggest lie of our time. There are basket cases, there always have been and most likely always will be but the new poverty was created by the destruction of jobs here to make higher profits there. When enough jobs have been destroyed who will be the clients to buy the products you are manufacturing elsewhere? All this is not going to end well - at least for those fo whom it never ends well.

 

[derf]

I have been watching for years as France's industrial jobs have been shipped off to other shores leaving the workers high and dry. Most can't take up other employment because:

1. there aren't any other jobs in the area
2. they haven't been trained/educated to be able to do anything else

So they fall down the social ladder and into alcohol etc and are then blamed for not having work. It is their fault that the jobs they had were off-shored and their fault they can't find another one because they drink too much etc. They should move to another part of the country where there is work. Try moving a family without money, I have, it isn't very easy... And I didn't have roots to begin with, or a mortgage on a house I had bought when I had a decent job that has become unsalable because there is no one with any money to buy it any more...

Poverty is the fault of the poor is the biggest lie of our time. There are basket cases, there always have been and most likely always will be but the new poverty was created by the destruction of jobs here to make higher profits there. When enough jobs have been destroyed who will be the clients to buy the products you are manufacturing elsewhere? All this is not going to end well - at least for those fo whom it never ends well.

I'm from a part of Africa where the life expectancy used to be 37 across the board (it's 62 now, mainly due to unlicensed HIV medication provided affordably to government health clinics). but its by way of saying it's a deprived area. but it was always possible to do or become whatever one wants to - if, and a major if it is, one put the effort in. I'm sorry to hear about your struggle, sincerely, but when I look at the opportunities European workers have I find it extremely difficult to accept that globalisation means they cannot find other ways to fulfil their potential. I'm afraid I just really don't buy it.

 

[tillson]

Sorry Tillson, I think brexit is only advisory but MPs should represent fairly the view of their constituencies rather than their own view. Where they can make things better is to use their education and intelligence to debate objectively and get us out of the present predicament where the Pound loses 20% of its value for nothing.

I think to go down the advisory route tree is a very dangerous path to follow. Pre-referendum, the government said they would ask the people and carry out their wishes. I understand that legally the referendum is advisory, but that has only been brought to the fore since the vote went "the wrong way."

People are not going to accept the "advisory" excuse. Even mild Brexit supporters who could easily swayed towards remain will feel immensely cheated by that outcome and a very hard Brexit is sure to follow within a few years.

I think the climate is right for EU reform, but unfortunately the EU leaders need hitting with a stick to make it happen. The threat of Brexit is that stick.

 

[derf]

I think to go down the advisory route tree is a very dangerous path to follow. Pre-referendum, the government said they would ask the people and carry out their wishes. I understand that legally the referendum is advisory, but that has only been brought to the fore since the vote went "the wrong way."

People are not going to accept the "advisory" excuse. Even mild Brexit supporters who could easily swayed towards remain will feel immensely cheated by that outcome and a very hard Brexit is sure to follow within a few years.

I think the climate is right for EU reform, but unfortunately the EU leaders need hitting with a stick to make it happen. The threat of Brexit is that stick.

funny that, I think the climate is right for a reform of right wing thinking in the uk, and that brexit voters need hitting with a stick, and that brexit is that stick