Brexit, for once some facts.

[jonathan.agnew]

I didn't assume anything. I've no idea what you're interested in; however, you did ask who the "they" were, did you not? I expressed my opinion, and as normal debate, I was hoping that you'd express yours, but I guess you find the situation too scary to consider.

To me, it implies that there are things going on, where the will of the common people, is not only being ignored, but actively subverted to promote agendas that are common through politics, entertainment, education and media. You can see how the same people and organisations that are pro remain, tend to promote the same agendas, which all seem to go together, e.g. shutting down free speech, collecting private information and personal profiling, undermining basic family values and the traditional British way of life, etc. Piece by piece, all the bits of the jigsaw are coming together. It's early days in the project, but you can see that every additional piece fits the picture of control of the masses by the elites - straight out of George Orwell's 1984.

When I was a left wing communist student, we were all for workers rights and anti-exploitation of the poor and the working classes. Now, when I stand up for miners' or steel-workers' rights, I'm considered extreme right wing. What I don't understand is why today's communists have flipped to such an extent. Do you have an explanation for that or is it something else that doesn't interest you because it's too scary to talk about?

This isn't a diversion. It's fundamentally what Brexit is all about.

That is, as long as the "common" people share your ethnicity and sexual orientation. You've no interest in the common people. And it is a diversion. And a quite unpleasant ethnocentric one.

 

[flecc]

undermining basic family values and the traditional British way of life, etc.

I understand where you are coming from and there are some truths in what you say. However, your view is somewhat restricted and missing some truths, perhaps quite common where you live but far from universal in this country.

First "family values". In a country where nearly a third of all households are single people, marriage is is increasingly uncommon, over half of all marriages end in divorce or separation, intentional single parenthood is commonplace and widespread and limited term childless partnerships are very common, can we really say what common family values are any more? I think not. I'd say the agenda you feel is operating is very often the views of far more people than you imagine, and it's probably those people who are inspiring the policies you dislike. In a democracy that will always happen as people have their say and our present prime minister living unmarried after many affairs and children born out of wedlock illustrates what I'm saying only too well.

Similarly, the traditional British way of life you seemingly think the norm is very far from it as our cities and largest towns show very clearly, both in the people seen there and the shops they use. That's perhaps most obviously seen in London, where only a little above 40% of the population are white British born and thus are one of the many minorities.

Remember, only 14% of the population of Britain live outside of large urban areas. Knowing many of them very well despite being a born and bred Londoner, I'm aware that they are the reservoir of traditional values not so common now in our majority population urban areas.

We are all born small "c" conservatives wanting things not change, but with both of us far into the second half of life now we have to accept that they do, and often not in ways we like or approve of. The great majority are younger than us, born into variously changed values, so their agenda increasingly holds sway.

N.B. Just for us oldies I've ended with a phrase that dates from the 1500s and unlikely to appear in texting!
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[Woosh]

When I was a left wing communist student, we were all for workers rights and anti-exploitation of the poor and the working classes.

communism suits you.

 

[vfr400]

We are all born small "c" conservatives wanting things not change, but with both of us far into the second half of life now we have to accept that they do, and often not in ways we like or approve of. The great majority are younger than us, born into variously changed values, so their agenda increasingly holds sway.

I understand what you're saying; however, I've got a feeling that there's something a bit more sinister going on than just normal drift and change. Do we really need drag queen story-telling at our primary schools? And I wonder why a judge has make an injunction to stop concerned parents protesting about it. These are normal concerned parents that don't want their very young children indoctrinated with things that don't fit into their family values. Where do we draw the line? Supposing they started teaching Naziism to primary school kids, then when the parents complained, they told them to shut the f up.

Did they teach you about LGBT stuff when you were at primary school? Did it help in any way or did you miss anything for not having it?

Why is it that the remain camp seems so much more pro LGBT stuff than the Brexit camp, when LGBT has nothing to do with Brexit?

 

[Danidl]

I didn't assume anything. I've no idea what you're interested in; however, you did ask who the "they" were, did you not? I expressed my opinion, and as normal debate, I was hoping that you'd express yours, but I guess you find the situation too scary to consider.

To me, it implies that there are things going on, where the will of the common people, is not only being ignored, but actively subverted to promote agendas that are common through politics, entertainment, education and media. You can see how the same people and organisations that are pro remain, tend to promote the same agendas, which all seem to go together, e.g. shutting down free speech, collecting private information and personal profiling, undermining basic family values and the traditional British way of life, etc. Piece by piece, all the bits of the jigsaw are coming together. It's early days in the project, but you can see that every additional piece fits the picture of control of the masses by the elites - straight out of George Orwell's 1984.

When I was a left wing communist student, we were all for workers rights and anti-exploitation of the poor and the working classes. Now, when I stand up for miners' or steel-workers' rights, I'm considered extreme right wing. What I don't understand is why today's communists have flipped to such an extent. Do you have an explanation for that or is it something else that doesn't interest you because it's too scary to talk about?

This isn't a diversion. It's fundamentally what Brexit is all about.

My last response on this topic is.
I asked you who "they" were... Because you had introduced this nameless "they". It is a common ploy by agitators or agiprop to introduce a unnamed " they" as some enemy who must be confronted by right thinking people. Your response confirms my suspicions. I will not be responding to the invitation ..

 

[vfr400]

My last response on this topic is.
I asked you who "they" were... Because you had introduced this nameless "they". It is a common ploy by agitators or agiprop to introduce a unnamed " they" as some enemy who must be confronted by right thinking people. Your response confirms my suspicions. I will not be responding to the invitation ..

Weirdo!

 

[flecc]

I understand what you're saying; however, I've got a feeling that there's something a bit more sinister going on than just normal drift and change. Do we really need drag queen story-telling at our primary schools?

I really don't think it's sinister, it's showing existing alternatives in the lives of children rather than hiding them away as they used to be so they won't think of them as not being a valid part of life. It really was indefensible that homosexuals for example were sent to prison, chemically castrated or forcibly given electric shock treatment, simply because of how they were born. Many were driven to suicide or even murdered. It's no better than doing the same to ginger haired people because they are another small minority.

And I wonder why a judge has make an injunction to stop concerned parents protesting about it. These are normal concerned parents that don't want their very young children indoctrinated with things that don't fit into their family values.

Here the answer is very clear, those parents are wrong and bigoted through ignorance. Many of them are claiming that their children are being taught homosexuality, but that is a nonsense. It's been long well known and understood that someone cannot be converted to being a homosexual if they are heterosexual. The teaching is simply to get those children, who are predominantly Muslim, to drop the bigotry and not attack or discriminate against those who don't accord exactly to their current narrow minded values. That's all, and why it's necessary to enforce our society's widely accepted values.

Did they teach you about LGBT stuff when you were at primary school?

No, but I would have liked to have been since it's a common part of our life and society. Better to learn it early than have my finding it out later with numerous misunderstandings though ignorance.

Why is it that the remain camp seems so much more pro LGBT stuff than the Brexit camp, when LGBT has nothing to do with Brexit?

This is a simple one, thanks to the Nazis and a history of war and intolerance, the EU represents tolerance for all and legislates that way. That is why Europe now has a European Court of Justice, the Human Rights Act and the Court of Human Rights.

Conversely, despite a self claimed tolerance, Britain has a very long history of sexual, religious and racial intolerance, which was widespread until very recently and still exists in numerous British individuals. Accordingly the less tolerant wish to leave the EU and return to those old British"values". The tolerant wish to remain in the EU with it's more inclusive values.

It really is as simple as that.
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[oyster]

I really don't think it's sinister, it's showing existing alternatives in the lives of chidren rather than hiding them away as they used to be so they won't think of them as not being a valid part of life. It really was indefensible that homosexuals for example were sent to prison, chemically castrated or forcibly given electric shock treatment, simply because of how they were born. Many were driven to suicide or even murdered. It's no better than doing the same to ginger haired people because they are another small minority.



Here the answer is very clear, those parents are wrong and bigoted through ignorance. Many of them are claiming that their children are being taught homosexuality, but that is a nonsense. It's been long well known and understood that someone cannot be converted to being a homosexual if they are heterosexual. The teaching is simply to get those children, who are predominantly Muslim, to drop the bigotry and not attack or discriminate against those who don't accord exactly to their current narrow minded values. That's all, and why it's necessary to enforce our society's widely accepted values.



No, but I would have liked to have been since it's a common part of our life and society. Better to learn it early than have my finding it out later with numerous misunderstandings though ignorance.



This is a simple one, thanks to the Nazis and a history of war and intolerance, the EU represents tolerance for all and legislates that way. That is why Europe now has a European Court of Justice, the Human Rights Act and the Court of Human Rights.

Conversely, despite a self claimed tolerance, Britain has a very long history of sexual, religious and racial intolerance, which was widespread until very recently and still exists in numerous British individuals. Accordingly the less tolerant wish to leave the EU and return to those old British"values". The tolerant wish to remain in the EU with it's more inclusive values.

It really is as simple as that.
.

I didn't get taught, by teachers, about homosexuality. But I certainly wasn't ignorant of it. It was, as many of us remember, something that was discussed, used as an insult and generally known.

We were ignorant of the details, the numbers, the "what to do if we believed we as individuals were homosexual".

From where I now am, I daren't think what impact this all had on those who were homosexual. (Not as in no longer homosexual.)

And we listened to Round the Horne - full of polari, etc.

 

[oldgroaner]

Personally I prefer to discuss brexit than entertain a disruptive clown who has surfaced again from under his bridge, but each to their own. He will continue to attempt to disrupt the thread if you encourage him.

 

[oldgroaner]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50624086
General election 2019: Facebook bans Tory ad over BBC footage

Time the Conservative Party was banned as subversive.
As a for instance
https://www.newsweek.com/boris-johnson-accused-plagiarizing-legal-blogger-1474926
WORLD
U.K. PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON ACCUSED OF PLAGIARIZING PROMINENT LEGAL BLOG IN TWEETS ABOUT LONDON BRIDGE ATTACKER

"
The Secret Barrister@BarristerSecret
https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1201076439250087936

The Prime Minister has basically copied and pasted my blogpost into a thread and passed it off as his own explanation.

A blogpost which I had to write to rebut the lies he spent yesterday spouting.

This is weapons grade shithousery. https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1201074217632047105 …
Boris Johnson

@BorisJohnson

The terrible Khan case has highlighted a complicated area of law. There have been many inaccuracies reported about this case over the last 24 hours. Here are the details (1/16)

54.8K
9:51 AM - Dec 1, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy

27.6K people are talking about this"
https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1201076439250087936

 

[oyster]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50624086
General election 2019: Facebook bans Tory ad over BBC footage

Time the Conservative Party was banned as subversive.

Your link includes this: "On Thursday, the Tories rejected a request from the BBC's lawyers to remove the 15-second video."

The BBC should not have requested. They should have demanded. They should be able to report that "the BBC demanded..."

Added:

In a statement, Facebook said: "We have removed this content following a valid intellectual property claim from the rights holder, the BBC.

"Whenever we receive valid IP claims against content on the platform, in advertising or elsewhere, we act in accordance with our policies and take action as required."

They can get it taken down for IP rights reasons but not for being a lie.

 

[flecc]

Personally I prefer to discuss brexit than entertain a disruptive clown who has surfaced again from under his bridge, but each to their own. He will continue to attempt to disrupt the thread if you encourage him.

Brexit is about everything in our lives and vfr400 is entitled to his view. He was right that Brexit and the issues he raised are the same thing, but that same thing is the issue of tolerance versus intolerance.

It's whether we continue with the old ways of intolerance and consequent warfare or choose another more civilised path of mutually tolerant and co-operative life. Excluding vfr400 and his view is continuing with the intolerance instead of finding common ground.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Brexit is about everything in our lives and vfr400 is entitled to his view. He was right that Brexit and the issues he raised are the same thing, but that same thing is the issue of tolerance versus intolerance.

It's whether we continue with the old ways of intolerance and consequent warfare or choose another more civilised path of mutually tolerant and co-operative life. Excluding vfr400 and his view is continuing with the intolerance instead of finding common ground.
.

Not so : his purpose was disruption and any ammunition suffices for that
I know the difference where tolerance should start and end too.
This guy has no intention of debating Brexit, he uses the remotest links to it as groundbait

After all his arguments are hardly expounding tolerance are they ? I unignored him to see, and the answer is not in a million years.
Nowadays it is far too easy to condone something that is so plainly wrong by invoking the word "tolerance"
That is why we are in the situation we are now, because in the name of "tolerance" people like the Leave party and Boris get away with what they do.
He remains on ignore where he justly belongs.
That is not intolerance, it's dealing properly with a pest.

 

[vfr400]

Brexit is about everything in our lives and vfr400 is entitled to his view. He was right that Brexit and the issues he raised are the same thing, but that same thing is the issue of tolerance versus intolerance.

It's whether we continue with the old ways of intolerance and consequent warfare or choose another more civilised path of mutually tolerant and co-operative life. Excluding vfr400 and his view is continuing with the intolerance instead of finding common ground.
.

Again, good points, and i agree up to a point. The point is where promoting tolerance goes a step further into positive promotion of these things. This is where I started. It's got to the point now where it's virtually impossible to get a job in companies like the BBC if you're a white straight male. The second point is that your chance to speak about these things is gradually getting closed down and people are starting to get sacked for their "intolerance", like the guy that was sacked after 8 years working in Asda because he shared a video of a Billy Conolly show that had been aired on TV on his Facebook page.

The agenda has drifted from not just only taking no notice of what people vote for, but now people at the highest levels in control of social media and other channels are positively shutting down people from speaking about the issues. Basically, if you speak anything in opposition to LGBT, religion, suppression of white men's rights and things like that, it's called hate speech, and you get labelled an agent of hate, so you lose your right not only to use that particular media platform, but others too.

I can see that if this drift continues, we could end up in the same circumstances as this Chinese guy, who made a joke about the Police confiscating motorbikes. It's well worth watching despite the commentator's annoying voice.

 

[oldgroaner]

How to misrepresent the facts, the Express ever stops, does it
"
BBC viewers turn TV off as Andrew Marr 'loses temper' in interview with Boris Johnson
BBC viewers turned their TV off lamenting host Andrew Marr's continued interruptions of Prime Minister Boris Johnson during an interview on the Conservative's record.

What actually happened was Boris lied and bluffed and Marr tried to bring him back to answer his questions.
Boris as usual made a total fool of himself.
He got his backside kicked.

A good indication of when the Tory politicians "lose it" is when the Express fails to allow reader comments as in this instance.
This is happening more and more frequently.

 

[Woosh]

that's probably the reason why Bojo's handlers keep him off TV interviews.

 

[flecc]

Again, good points, and i agree up to a point. The point is where promoting tolerance goes a step further into positive promotion of these things. This is where I started. It's got to the point now where it's virtually impossible to get a job in companies like the BBC if you're a white straight male. The second point is that your chance to speak about these things is gradually getting closed down and people are starting to get sacked for their "intolerance", like the guy that was sacked after 8 years working in Asda because he shared a video of a Billy Conolly show that had been aired on TV on his Facebook page.

The agenda has drifted from not just only taking no notice of what people vote for, but now people at the highest levels in control of social media and other channels are positively shutting down people from speaking about the issues. Basically, if you speak anything in opposition to LGBT, religion, suppression of white men's rights and things like that, it's called hate speech, and you get labelled an agent of hate, so you lose your right not only to use that particular media platform, but others too.

I agree that some are over reacting in defence of rights to an totally unnecessary degree. We've seen that in many areas now and I've acknowledged that in the area of womens rights where there has been huge over compensation that still continues in some of the media areas.

I'm hopeful though that this will settle down to a sensible balance over time as each subject becomes routinely accepted and even boring. We aren't there yet as our two somewhat differing views and the more extreme differences in others show.

It takes time, just look at the way we still get people tut-tutting about the moderate liberalisation of the 1960s nearly 70 years later. Normalisation of social change entails entire generations passing away for a completely new society to establish a widely accepted reasonable norm.

I don't think we are in any danger of such as that Chinese example which is typically Oriental in approach. We only have to remember the behaviour of the Japanese in WW2 and Pol Pot's crimes against humanity in Cambodia to know that. Westerners just don't have the necessary fanatical dedication to carry through such extremes, put bluntly, we are mostly too damn lazy to be bothered!
.

 

[Woosh]

polls show conservatives lead over Labour is now at 11%. 50% of remainers vote for Labour and perhaps more remainers will vote tactically.

Con: 42
Labour 31
LD: 14
BXP: 4

It wouldn't surprise me if we end up with the same split like now.

 

[Woosh]

put bluntly, we are mostly too damn lazy to be bothered!

we are just a bit more tolerant.

 

[flecc]

we are just a bit more tolerant.

That's being kind!
.