Customs union makes Mr Fox redundant. He can't negociate separate FTAs with most countries, including India, China, Canada, Mexico and the US if TTIP is revived. We still have to adopt all EU directives. On the plus side, we are guaranteed access for goods, we don't have to pay into EU coffers unless we choose to partiicipate in some programs like scientific research, environment protection, CAP and fisheries.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Today,I have read two poems. The first was brought to mind during a country walk and most should know it, if not all of it.
I refer to 'Ode to Autumn' by John Keats which is very descriptive of this moment between summer and the onset of winter.
The other, which I wasn't aware of at all, was written by a woman and aptly describes my socialist outlook as the war waged by the monied class against the poor, the sick, the disabled and disadvantaged has not ended but goes on relentlessly.
These are the words of Ella Wheeler Wilcox who died almost a hundred years ago:
To sin by silence, when we should protest,
Makes cowards out of men. The human race
Has climbed on protest. Had no voice been raised
Against injustice, ignorance, and lust,
The inquisition yet would serve the law,
And guillotines decide our least disputes.
The few who dare, must speak and speak again
To right the wrongs of many.
Speech, thank God,
No vested power in this great day and land
Can gag or throttle. Press and voice may cry
Loud disapproval of existing ills;
May criticise oppression and condemn
The lawlessness of wealth-protecting laws
That let the children and childbearers toil
To purchase ease for idle millionaires.
Therefore I do protest against the boast
Of independence in this mighty land.
Call no chain strong, which holds one rusted link.
Call no land free, that holds one fettered slave.
Until the manacled slim wrists of babes
Are loosed to toss in childish sport and glee,
Until the mother bears no burden, save
The precious one beneath her heart, until
God’s soil is rescued from the clutch of greed
And given back to labor, let no man
Call this the land of freedom.
Tom
I refer to 'Ode to Autumn' by John Keats which is very descriptive of this moment between summer and the onset of winter.
The other, which I wasn't aware of at all, was written by a woman and aptly describes my socialist outlook as the war waged by the monied class against the poor, the sick, the disabled and disadvantaged has not ended but goes on relentlessly.
These are the words of Ella Wheeler Wilcox who died almost a hundred years ago:
To sin by silence, when we should protest,
Makes cowards out of men. The human race
Has climbed on protest. Had no voice been raised
Against injustice, ignorance, and lust,
The inquisition yet would serve the law,
And guillotines decide our least disputes.
The few who dare, must speak and speak again
To right the wrongs of many.
Speech, thank God,
No vested power in this great day and land
Can gag or throttle. Press and voice may cry
Loud disapproval of existing ills;
May criticise oppression and condemn
The lawlessness of wealth-protecting laws
That let the children and childbearers toil
To purchase ease for idle millionaires.
Therefore I do protest against the boast
Of independence in this mighty land.
Call no chain strong, which holds one rusted link.
Call no land free, that holds one fettered slave.
Until the manacled slim wrists of babes
Are loosed to toss in childish sport and glee,
Until the mother bears no burden, save
The precious one beneath her heart, until
God’s soil is rescued from the clutch of greed
And given back to labor, let no man
Call this the land of freedom.
Tom
Last edited:
It does seem that the Leavers on the forum have given up on Brexit,any right thinking person must agree that this experiment looks a disaster,getting worse on a daily basis.
My sister in law sent me a text on June 24, proudly stating that she had voted OUT.....because of Boris's promise of the £350 million to be spent on the NHS,not being given to the EU.
Today with no prompting from me...she said 'what have I done Brexit is a monumental cock up and I am one of the stupid culprits'
She takes a winter holiday to South Africa to see friends,and has seen the £ v Rand drop in value and her BA flight up considerably,the holiday will cost her double that of the previous year. She also is seeing her weekly shop going up in cost every day.
She is not a wealthy lady,typical of those who voted Brexit without understanding the implications,she would welcome a 2nd referendum to reverse her vote but will this strengthen the pound,the markets may have already lost confidence in the UK.
I wonder how many others think like her but assume that the vote is not reversible?
KudosDave
My sister in law sent me a text on June 24, proudly stating that she had voted OUT.....because of Boris's promise of the £350 million to be spent on the NHS,not being given to the EU.
Today with no prompting from me...she said 'what have I done Brexit is a monumental cock up and I am one of the stupid culprits'
She takes a winter holiday to South Africa to see friends,and has seen the £ v Rand drop in value and her BA flight up considerably,the holiday will cost her double that of the previous year. She also is seeing her weekly shop going up in cost every day.
She is not a wealthy lady,typical of those who voted Brexit without understanding the implications,she would welcome a 2nd referendum to reverse her vote but will this strengthen the pound,the markets may have already lost confidence in the UK.
I wonder how many others think like her but assume that the vote is not reversible?
KudosDave
Idiocy in the Telegraph this morning
"
British fisherman will catch hundreds of thousands of tonnes more fish after Brexit, minister says"
And it shows Boris holding up a fish.
Having forgotten that the Fishing quotas were imposed at the Request of the British Government?
And how long does the idiot imagine the fish stocks will last?
Never has a Nation been worse served by it's own Government in peacetime than we have
"
British fisherman will catch hundreds of thousands of tonnes more fish after Brexit, minister says"
And it shows Boris holding up a fish.
Having forgotten that the Fishing quotas were imposed at the Request of the British Government?
And how long does the idiot imagine the fish stocks will last?
Never has a Nation been worse served by it's own Government in peacetime than we have
Fishing quotas have never been unfair. They may catch hundreds of thousands of tonnes more then throw what isn't "à la mode" (read: with a decent price on the market) over the side, dead...
What he (whatshisname) is holding up is a salmon (notice the resemblance, especially the intelligence in the eyes...) which probably came from a farm anyway which is why the man behind him has a big grin and the thought bubble reads "You daft pri.."
What he (whatshisname) is holding up is a salmon (notice the resemblance, especially the intelligence in the eyes...) which probably came from a farm anyway which is why the man behind him has a big grin and the thought bubble reads "You daft pri.."
Although the EU Common Fisheries Policy has provided fairness where none existed previously, there are still many in the UK who decry the policy, believing that our former, massive, trawler fleet should still rule the waves.
Fish stocks management has been improved hugely thanks to EU agreement, not only between the 28 states but also with those other countries which fish in the seas around Europe.
It seems many have forgotten or are too young to remember the 'Cod wars' which existed from pre-WW2 days right through till the 1970s, preferring to tell old stories about their uncles, fathers or grandfathers who were all trawlermen, thrown on the employment scrapheap thanks, as they see it, to the EU.
The agreements achieved through EU negotiations were a marvellous achievement and a great many nations had to rein-in their fishing fleets to prevent the seas being fished to exhaustion. Given that the UK in particular adopted a very warlike posture, using warships to deter foreign fleets from fishing inside arbitrary fishing limits, the EU managed to avoid major military conflict through those negotiations.
The biggest threat to fish stocks didn't come from tiny Iceland or from the French, german or Spanish; it came from the then USSR which sailed in with factory ships accompanied by fleets of trawlers. We picked our fight mainly with Iceland but also shouted nasty things and threatened the French and Spanish!
The notion that, post 'Brexit', should that ever occur, we resume fishing extensively once more, bringing in hundreds of thousands more fish is ridiculous - I for one couldn't really eat any more fish than I do now.
Tom
agree, I think the die hard right wing types who voted brexit wont shift from denial and anger into depression and bargaining even with a hard brexit. Now with Nissan deal a more awful reality emerges IMHO, a semi soft brexit that doesn't really work, economically or in any other sense, but doesn't allow things to become awful enough quick enough to challenge the closet racists who voted for it, or a status quo with awful expedient unprincipled opportunists like May. it will be death by a thousand cuts, the only possible redemption, bizarrely and utterly paradoxically, is with international investors and their impact on value of pound
http://www.forbes.com/sites/katinastefanova/2016/10/30/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-british-pound/#c20695874501
Absolutely! 90% of those who supported the idea had literally no idea of what they were getting themselves into........well, not just themselves - that is the saddest part!
Some say ignorance is bliss - really?
Tom
there is no guarantee that the EU will agree to the UK joining its customs union. In principle, it should and there is no reason not to but not a guarantee.
I seems that the brexit argument that a lower Pound is good is delusional - If you plot the British GDP in dollars on the same time chart as the Pound, the growth seen after devaluation events, the IMF loan, the 1992 exit of the ERM and 2016 brexit, are all due to inflation. The British productivity does not grow. Hence the rich gets richer and the poor poorer.
I reckon at least 15%.
"One of the reasons that Brexit won was that it was always a respectable opinion to hold, even if you didn't hold it,"
a quote from professor A. King, Essex university.
and that is still true. remainers publicly are shamed into silence mostly, the boring but intimidating refrain of put up and shut up from brexiters. only the entirely brazen like Teflon tony says the "unspeakable" (lets have another referendum now its clear it was a colossal mistake). I don't quite know how we got here - a place where closet racism is the respectable opinion to hold, the dominant narrative. after years of populist politicians exploiting the EU as a handy drum to bang to manipulate the stupid and uninformed it makes sense I guess. or maybe we've been, quietly, all along a country of jingoistically self deluded alan partridge type idiots.
although I don't agree with derf in is post #6013, I follow closely the US presidential and cannot fail to see parallels between Donald Trump supporters and brexit supporters. If you ask which decade is the best, they all go back quite a few, 60s and 70s are the most popular answers.
Next week my business has a large stand at the NEC Classic motor show,this will be the only show we have exhibited at since the Brexit vote.
It will be interesting the attitude customers have to some very hefty price rises on some products.....will Brexiters just shrug their shoulders and say that they accept that is the price of Brexit and are pleased to pay and will Remainers be fed up that they didn't vote for this, yet we are all being penalised for something they didn't vote for?
Extra security needed to keep them apart,hehe....
KudosDave
It will be interesting the attitude customers have to some very hefty price rises on some products.....will Brexiters just shrug their shoulders and say that they accept that is the price of Brexit and are pleased to pay and will Remainers be fed up that they didn't vote for this, yet we are all being penalised for something they didn't vote for?
Extra security needed to keep them apart,hehe....
KudosDave
Is it treason that we should discuss the possibility of a 2nd referendum or possibly a discussion in parliament as to whether Brexit is a good idea.
It seems to me that all the complex solutions to problems such as Nissan and there will be many more.....the banks,aeronautics,farmers.....all will require unique solutions for each industry.
Even the most ardent Leaver must be questioning whether all this mess is worthwhile and the best decision is to forget Brexit.
The Brexit the government seems to be moving towards is super soft Brexit,I cannot see this satisfying what Leavers wanted and actually not far removed of were we are at present....which is why Farage and Co are spitting blood,we are heading towards 'diluted Brexit'
As we all predicted it is the poor who will most be increasingly hurt by Brexit ,I just don't see any way that their lives will be improved after Brexit.
KudosDave
It seems to me that all the complex solutions to problems such as Nissan and there will be many more.....the banks,aeronautics,farmers.....all will require unique solutions for each industry.
Even the most ardent Leaver must be questioning whether all this mess is worthwhile and the best decision is to forget Brexit.
The Brexit the government seems to be moving towards is super soft Brexit,I cannot see this satisfying what Leavers wanted and actually not far removed of were we are at present....which is why Farage and Co are spitting blood,we are heading towards 'diluted Brexit'
As we all predicted it is the poor who will most be increasingly hurt by Brexit ,I just don't see any way that their lives will be improved after Brexit.
KudosDave
It certainly seems that way, and if so, the Brexit vote might just amount to voluntarily giving up our rebate.
That would really amuse the 27 EU members!
.
We should demand a second referendum on the basis as Farage put it that to change from the present situation of being members of the EU requires a 3 to 1 vote in favour of leaving from a minimum of 35% vote participation from the Public
In his own words a 52% to 48% vote in favour of staying would be unfinished business, only a 3 to 1 vote would close the matter,
Good enough for him, good enough for me. just change the word staying to leave.
In his own words a 52% to 48% vote in favour of staying would be unfinished business, only a 3 to 1 vote would close the matter,
Good enough for him, good enough for me. just change the word staying to leave.
As Boris linked deleting EU contributions to increase in NHS funding,the £350 million per week down the side of the big red bus.
And,we are told by Brexiters that Leave is a done deal and we are all Brexiters now ,we should all embrace Brexit and look for the opportunities it creates,I have a brilliant idea that we can all share in....we should all have a BREXIT TAX.
We should add 2% to all forms of taxation....income tax,capital gains tax,vat,corporation tax,booze and fag tax,petrol duty,green taxes etc etc,we should take 2% out of all benefit payments,out of pension payments etc etc.
This money should be given directly to the NHS,not filtered by any government black hole. We would then have the best funded NHS in the world,the best trained,the best staffed,the best hospitals,one we would all be proud of.
That way we can all see some benefit from Brexit...there was a guy on Question Time who said he didnt mind losing a few quid to support Brexit,here is an opportunity to put his money and mouth together.
What do members think of my brilliant idea,should I suggest it to Hammond???
KudosDave
And,we are told by Brexiters that Leave is a done deal and we are all Brexiters now ,we should all embrace Brexit and look for the opportunities it creates,I have a brilliant idea that we can all share in....we should all have a BREXIT TAX.
We should add 2% to all forms of taxation....income tax,capital gains tax,vat,corporation tax,booze and fag tax,petrol duty,green taxes etc etc,we should take 2% out of all benefit payments,out of pension payments etc etc.
This money should be given directly to the NHS,not filtered by any government black hole. We would then have the best funded NHS in the world,the best trained,the best staffed,the best hospitals,one we would all be proud of.
That way we can all see some benefit from Brexit...there was a guy on Question Time who said he didnt mind losing a few quid to support Brexit,here is an opportunity to put his money and mouth together.
What do members think of my brilliant idea,should I suggest it to Hammond???
KudosDave