Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

yes it makes you wonder how we ever survived without the euro mafia

Would that be the one that saved our bacon after the IMF had to run the country?
The Mafia we suffer from is home grown and called "The Conservative Party"
And due to mass delusions and a rigged referendum you will shortly see how utterly incompetent and dangerous they truly are.

Do you seriously imagine they will make Brexit work on the basis of past performance?
They have even made a balls up of leaving , so lord help us when we have.

 

[50Hertz]

having to grow our own food?
Which part of that is an "upside"?

Greater self sufficiency.
Jobs created.
Less spend on imports, helping the balance of payment.
Productive use of land.

 

[50Hertz]

Would that be the one that saved our bacon after the IMF had to run the country?
The Mafia we suffer from is home grown and called "The Conservative Party"
And due to mass delusions and a rigged referendum you will shortly see how utterly incompetent and dangerous they truly are.

Do you seriously imagine they will make Brexit work on the basis of past performance?
They have even made a balls up of leaving , so lord help us when we have.

Something we can agree on. Yes the rigging and dodgy conduct was shocking.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/2f91721d-9512-3c2a-9e0f-4453897183c8

Remain received a hefty fine for spending irregularities. Awful.

 

[Woosh]

Ah the good ol' days - back to a diet of tripe & turnips!

You, ve been to France then..

nothing wrong with tripes.
'tripes a la mode de caen' is quite tasty, eaten with proper French 'baguette de tradition'.
don't forget to serve a 'trou normand' before the next course.

 

[oldgroaner]

You really do talk nonsense at times. Almost troll-like. To suggest that the actual Mafia would run the country better than Moggs would.... really OG. Really.

As far as I am concerned the Conservatives are a Mafia, just an incompetent one.
No I take that back, they are in fact a grouping of several separate Mafia gangs, bought and sold by anyone who can stump up enough money.

The DUP is the living proof of that , especially when it comes to not keeping their word when it suits them.

They simply lied to to Theresa May to get the money, then rat on the deal when it suits them.
Ther are too many lobby groups that serve Israel, America, Saudi Arabia, and of course China and Russia.

With luck Brexit will be their downfall,as it was after all their conniving and stupidity that brought it about, and look at them now.
What a pathetic excuse for a Government.

They will sign up to leave us as a rule taking vassal of he EU because they are afraid.
Afraid to ask the people for a Mandate worthy of Brexit.
Roll on Brino Day, let's all have a good laugh, we are going to "Take on the World" with an army of incompetent cowards who haven't got plan running the country.
Oh Sorry! there is a plan.
Theresa May is going to go back to the EU and grovel, "Please Sirs can we have some more?"
In the hope they will take pity on her.

 

[gray198]

I see robdon has woken up to give us the benefit of his insights

 

[flecc]

However, it is not possible say that will be the case for eternity, which is what I believe flecc to be saying. To claim that the current situation is set in stone for all time is preposterous. My point was, that what seems unthinkable today may happen at some point in the future.

Not eternity, but set in stone for the duration of the EU since it is integral to the existence of the EU. The four freedoms are written deeply into every EU treaty from the outset, all eleven of them. In every case these treaties have been agreed by all EU member countries.

Each one of them can only be changed by agreement of all member countries, all 27 of them after we leave but soon to be back to 28. To try to achieve the freedom of movement change in all 11 treaties would be like Brexit 28 times over with all needing to agree each time. And that is only after the European Parliament, EU Commission and European Council have all agreed to such a fundamental change, which is about as likely as me winning both the National Lottery and Euromillions jackpots in the same week.*

That is why your "stroke of a pen" change was so ridiculous.

There won't be such a change until the EU itself disappears, which is likely to be after we are dead and gone.

*I promise to let you know if that happens.
.

 

[50Hertz]

I see robdon has woken up

Who?

 

[oldgroaner]

Something we can agree on. Yes the rigging and dodgy conduct was shocking.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/2f91721d-9512-3c2a-9e0f-4453897183c8

Remain received a hefty fine for spending irregularities. Awful.

But they didn't rig the referendum did they, this is what happened
"


Remain campaigners have been fined £19,000 for failing to declare their spending properly

Quite right too,but nowhere is there an accusation of illegal data harvesting and use of Emails and targetted adverts on people selected using that Data without their knowledge that corrupted the Referendum result is there?

Shocking it may be, but it doesn't change the fact that Leave actually corrupted the Referendum Vote, does it? and the people who should have gone to jail for that got away scot free.

 

[flecc]

Who?

The wisest person here, expressing his opinions without posts which can be attacked.
.

 

[50Hertz]

Not eternity, but set in stone for the duration of the EU since it is integral to the existence of the EU. The four freedoms are written deeply into every EU treaty from the outset, all eleven of them. In every case these treaties have been agreed by all EU member countries.

Each one of them can only be changed by agreement of all member countries, all 27 of them after we leave but soon to be back to 28. To try to achieve the freedom of movement change in all 11 treaties would be like Brexit 28 times over with all needing to agree each time. And that is only after the European Parliament, EU Commission and European Council have all agreed to such a fundamental change, which is about as likely as me winning both the National Lottery and Euromillions jackpots in the same week.*

That is why your "stroke of a pen" change was so ridiculous.

There won't be such a change until the EU itself disappears, which is likely to be after we are dead and gone.

*I promise to let you know if that happens.
.

I agree with about 75% of that.

 

[Danidl]

I hate to say ," I told you so. ".... actually that is the first deliberate untruth ,I have said on this forum, but the response from Europe today are exactly as I had suggested previously.
1. The Agreement is concluded. It is not open for re negotiation.
2. The Backstop is part of the Agreement.
3. If the UK provide a novel approach now,it may be considered,but it would have to be closer to the current EU than apart.
4. The integrity of the negotiations to date and the integrity of the four freedoms,will demand that. Even if it were to mean Ireland suffering badly,that is what will happen.
5. The loss of the UK market ,while regrettable, is fully within the control of the UK.
Simply regurgitation of ideas will not suffice to gain any extension to Article 50 .
It would help dialogue if the UK side actually listened to what european commentary is saying.

 

[50Hertz]

The wisest person here, expressing his opinions without posts which can be attacked.
.

Fair comment.

 

[gray198]

Who?

no idea

 

[gray198]

The wisest person here, expressing his opinions without posts which can be attacked.
.

wouldn't be much of a debate if everyone did that

 

[gray198]

I hate to say ," I told you so. ".... actually that is the first deliberate untruth ,I have said on this forum, but the response from Europe today are exactly as I had suggested previously.
1. The Agreement is concluded. It is not open for re negotiation.
2. The Backstop is part of the Agreement.
3. If the UK provide a novel approach now,it may be considered,but it would have to be closer to the current EU than apart.
Simply regurgitation of ideas will not suffice.
It would help dialogue if the UK side actually listened to what european commentary is saying.

no deal then

 

[flecc]

not thinking specifically of lettuce or even Kenya. Was recently in the Caribbean, St Vincent was the island I think. Quite a poor island, who used to sell us a lot of bananas according to the taxi driver, but that trade stopped when we entered the EU. Maybe that sort of trade could be resurrected and also with other

That is totally untrue, another anti-EU myth. In fact the EU is the defender of the Carribean banana trade, its the WTO that Leavers love so much who blocked the Carribean producers from supplying Europe, see here:

"The Union's ill-fated banana import arrangements, which gave preferential market access to Caribbean fruit, were designed to provide producers with a fair living in the face of overwhelming competition from more cost-effective Latin American rivals.

Now, with just three months to go before the EU must scrap the regime which the World Trade Organisation condemned last year as discriminatory, the Commission is desperately looking for a way to meet its WTO obligations while still holding out a helping hand to beleaguered Caribbean growers."

Once again this shows the idiocy of the Brexit abandonment of the EU in favour of the WTO with it's callous US control,

Information Link
.

 

[50Hertz]

But they didn't rig the referendum did they, this is what happened
"


Remain campaigners have been fined £19,000 for failing to declare their spending properly

Quite right too,but nowhere is there an accusation of illegal data harvesting and use of Emails and targetted adverts on people selected using that Data without their knowledge that corrupted the Referendum result is there?

Shocking it may be, but it doesn't change the fact that Leave actually corrupted the Referendum Vote, does it? and the people who should have gone to jail for that got away scot free.

It sounds like the Remain campaign have been accused, investigated, convicted and sentenced. The Leave campaign have been accused, but that still leaves the investigation, trial and sentencing before we can say they did anything illegal. Innocent until proven & all that.

 

[gray198]

That is totally untrue, another anti-EU myth. In fact the EU is the defender of the Carribean banana trade, its the WTO that Leavers love so much who blocked the Carribean producers from supplying Europe, see here:

"The Union's ill-fated banana import arrangements, which gave preferential market access to Caribbean fruit, were designed to provide producers with a fair living in the face of overwhelming competition from more cost-effective Latin American rivals.

Now, with just three months to go before the EU must scrap the regime which the World Trade Organisation condemned last year as discriminatory, the Commission is desperately looking for a way to meet its WTO obligations while still holding out a helping hand to beleaguered Caribbean growers."

Once again this shows the idiocy of the Brexit abandonment of the EU in favour of the WTO with it's callous US control,

Information Link
.

That is totally untrue, another anti-EU myth. In fact the EU is the defender of the Carribean banana trade, its the WTO that Leavers love so much who blocked the Carribean producers from supplying Europe, see here:

"The Union's ill-fated banana import arrangements, which gave preferential market access to Caribbean fruit, were designed to provide producers with a fair living in the face of overwhelming competition from more cost-effective Latin American rivals.

Now, with just three months to go before the EU must scrap the regime which the World Trade Organisation condemned last year as discriminatory, the Commission is desperately looking for a way to meet its WTO obligations while still holding out a helping hand to beleaguered Caribbean growers."

Once again this shows the idiocy of the Brexit abandonment of the EU in favour of the WTO with it's callous US control,

Information Link
.

I was merely quoting what the taxi driver said and how it had affected them. I'm sure the eu has done a lot of good for impoverished countries around the world. They are after all the good guys

 

[oldgroaner]

Greater self sufficiency.
Jobs created.
Less spend on imports, helping the balance of payment.
Productive use of land.

You really believe that will happen?
Forget the self sufficiency , during the war years the UK population was 47 million and it is 67 Million now , a far bigger problem than we had back then.
As to doing it yourself,
Who is going to wait for months after digging over their garden to plant food and wait for it to grow?

Supermarkets have driven prices down so far that many farmers have gone out of business.
Who is going to tell the Farmers what to plant and guarantee prices that make them viable?
Food prices will have to go sky high to justify them going back into that area of business,and people will not take kindly to that, will they.
So who will force the farmers back into a business they have abandoned?
Are we going to resurrect the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries and control the farmers as was done during the war years?
Where are the New jobs going to be? doing what?
They won't be needed for consumer goods as there will be no fewer imports, dumping of cheap tat from China will replace quality goods, and dodgy food from the USA will decimate Farming here.

Sorry but what you suggest is not practical