Brexit, for once some facts.

[OxygenJames]

I agree, more information is now available along with a clearer understanding of the capabilities and competence of those charged with delivering Brexit. As a leave voter the first time around, I would like to see a second referendum as I think it only fair to allow people to step back now that they have more knowledge. I would support whatever result is returned.

The wording of the question would be very difficult, perhaps too difficult to be fair. Remain is easy, nothing changes. We now understand leave to mean a whole spectrum of different outcomes, how do you condense that into a single question / option without splitting the leave vote, which would be unfair to leavers.

The current Prime Minister must go. She is utterly unsuited to the role. She is secretive, unapproachable, a very bad listener, a poor communicator, lacks charisma, stubborn to the point of being an embarrassment, has a long history of serial failure and is incompetent. No progress can be made whilst ever she is involved.

From what I read on here, even if a second referendum returned a leave decision, the remain supporters would not accept the democratic decision. That is a childish outlook which can only serve to harm the U.K. We need to put aside our divisions, have a second referendum (if the question wording problem can be solved) and commit to supporting the result. Otherwise this will never go away.

Yeah right. They didn't accept the first referendum decision - what makes anybody think they'd accept the second.

 

[OxygenJames]

Just wonder if all this is planned.
Probably giving credit where none due but current situation is putting pressure on EU to offer an improved deal. (or guarantees in law) May is still safe. (assuming she wins no condidence vote, which I, m pretty sure she will)
???? Perhaps government not as stupid as we assume, but not convinced about that.
She will now put ball back in EU's court with her "plan B" and wait for them to make new offer (or perhaps old one).. Only wondering..
Looking like ref2 tho if I, m honest.
SA is wonderful. Lots of issues around security. Loocals think sea is cold. Not at side of North sea it aint. Great place. Nice wind yesterday. None today.

But what plan B? What can she possibly go back with that would get the approval of a majority in parliament? Tell me because I just do not know.

 

[OxygenJames]

Yes, but they've already given favourable indications. It's as much in their interests as ours, they also want a deal.
.

That is very true Flecc. They DO want a deal. There's still much posturing going on.

 

[OxygenJames]

UK parliament can still pass a law on the 28th of March to repeal the 'Great Repeal Act', the EU will accept that.
More likely though, parliament will vote on JC's no confidence motion tomorrow. If the vote is very close, TM will have to work with JC to save her deal.
That's the best outcome.
If TM and JC can't work together, JC will have to table a motion for a second referendum.

Huh? There's no majority in parliament for a second ref - and no matter how close the confidence vote is the only thing that matters is if she wins it - which she will.

 

[oyster]

And Parliament seems determined to prevent a 'no-deal' exit.

Remember that JRM voted against May's deal despite being apparently dead keen to get no-deal. So that actual number against no-deal has yet to be tested in a real HoC vote.

 

[Zlatan]

But what plan B? What can she possibly go back with that would get the approval of a majority in parliament? Tell me because I just do not know.

Nothing but EU could give more guarantees about backstop or even allow us free access???
No, she has no manouvering room but I believe she has 3 days to come up with a plan B... (plan A??)
As I said just thinking out loud... I think we will have ref2..
Mays deal or remain. MPs would pass her deal after a referendum. We cant have a 3 option ref.. Surely?

 

[Woosh]

Two stage ref wont happen. Way to complicated.

sorry, two questions.

One of worries is turnout will be low..Too low?? Then its void???

the second referendum would be advisory. Parliament will have to put it into law.

 

[50Hertz]

Yeah right. They didn't accept the first referendum decision - what makes anybody think they'd accept the second.

That is the problem, I think the remain camp are of a mind-set and character that they would not accept a leave vote even if it was 90% in favour of leaving. They would continue to peevishly undermine and snipe at the UK’s position.

In truth I think some sort of deal will be struck. The Fürhrer will summon her Irish puppy to The Father Land within the next few days and give him his instructions. If she has her finger on the life support machine which is keeping the Irish “cabbage” economy in a persistent vegetative state, it will focus his mind on a border solution.

Germany is the EU and Germany will provide the final solution to Brexit.

 

[Woosh]

That is the problem, I think the remain camp are of a mind-set and character that they would not accept a leave vote even if it was 90% in favour of leaving. They would continue to peevishly undermine and snipe at the UK’s position.

In truth I think some sort of deal will be struck. The Fürhrer will summon her Irish puppy to The Father Land within the next few days and give him his instructions. If she has her finger on the life support machine which is keeping the Irish “cabbage” economy in a persistent vegetative state, it will focus his mind on a border solution.

Germany is the EU and Germany will provide the final solution to Brexit.

it's a fact that TM's deal got voted down not by so many remainer MPs as by hard brexiter conservative MPs.

 

[oldgroaner]

I agree, more information is now available along with a clearer understanding of the capabilities and competence of those charged with delivering Brexit. As a leave voter the first time around, I would like to see a second referendum as I think it only fair to allow people to step back now that they have more knowledge. I would support whatever result is returned.

The wording of the question would be very difficult, perhaps too difficult to be fair. Remain is easy, nothing changes. We now understand leave to mean a whole spectrum of different outcomes, how do you condense that into a single question / option without splitting the leave vote, which would be unfair to leavers.

The current Prime Minister must go. She is utterly unsuited to the role. She is secretive, unapproachable, a very bad listener, a poor communicator, lacks charisma, stubborn to the point of being an embarrassment, has a long history of serial failure and is incompetent. No progress can be made whilst ever she is involved.

From what I read on here, even if a second referendum returned a leave decision, the remain supporters would not accept the democratic decision. That is a childish outlook which can only serve to harm the U.K. We need to put aside our divisions, have a second referendum (if the question wording problem can be solved) and commit to supporting the result. Otherwise this will never go away.

I really do not understand your logic with this
"From what I read on here, even if a second referendum returned a leave decision, the remain supporters would not accept the democratic decision. That is a childish outlook which can only serve to harm the U.K. "

Sorry, but you are guilty of not understanding the first thing about democracy .
Democracy does not in any way require a person to "Accept a decision" that they know to be wrong, and never oppose it again.
Why do you think it does? why do you require them to ignore their consciences just because more voted for one side that the other?

There is a saying
For evil to triumph it only requires good men to do nothing.

Do you think you have the right to tell opponents how to think?
And even if they still oppose the decision
How can it serve to harm the UK? they have no power over events.

Using your logic the Eurosceptics should never have been allowed to oppose the EU for the last forty years.

What you are arguing for is totalitarian rule, not Democracy.
That is a childish outlook which can only serve to harm the U.K.

 

[oldgroaner]

That is the problem, I think the remain camp are of a mind-set and character that they would not accept a leave vote even if it was 90% in favour of leaving. They would continue to peevishly undermine and snipe at the UK’s position.

In truth I think some sort of deal will be struck. The Fürhrer will summon her Irish puppy to The Father Land within the next few days and give him his instructions. If she has her finger on the life support machine which is keeping the Irish “cabbage” economy in a persistent vegetative state, it will focus his mind on a border solution.

Germany is the EU and Germany will provide the final solution to Brexit.

Bit corny don't you think? and attempting a bit of "one upmanship?"
Your first paragraph is just plain tripe
Get some better propaganda, that lot looks really tired.
Brexit has now nothing whatever to do with the "Will of the people" has it?
Parliament are trampling all over their new toy and will tear it to shreds

 

[50Hertz]

it's a fact that TM's deal got voted down not by so many remainer MPs as by hard brexiter conservative MPs.

That is because it was a very bad deal. Far worse than remaining in the EU and worse than leaving on WTO terms. TM skilfully navigated treacherous path which reached a point where absolutely no one wanted to be. Quite amazing that. The icing on her feces filled Victoria Sponge is that she has managed to get everyone to hate her as well. A round of applause for The Prime Minister.

Let’s have a more pragmatic PM and see where that takes us. TM is utterly useless and will take us nowhere anyone wants to be.

 

[oldgroaner]

Let's sum up where we are
Brexit if it ever was the "Will of the people" no longer is

It is the the new punch bag of the House of Commons, entirely at the risk of the biggest bunch of clowns ever to infest the HOC

There are only four ways to resolve it, and no majority for any one
New Deal
No Deal
Referendum
Change their mind over May's deal.

This is what Brexit is.. a disaster , plain and simple

 

[50Hertz]

I really do not understand your logic with this
"From what I read on here, even if a second referendum returned a leave decision, the remain supporters would not accept the democratic decision. That is a childish outlook which can only serve to harm the U.K. "

Sorry, but you are guilty of not understanding the first thing about democracy .
Democracy does not in any way require a person to "Accept a decision" that they know to be wrong, and never oppose it again.
Why do you think it does? why do you require them to ignore their consciences just because more voted for one side that the other?

There is a saying
For evil to triumph it only requires good men to do nothing.

Do you think you have the right to tell opponents how to think?
And even if they still oppose the decision
How can it serve to harm the UK? they have no power over events.

Using your logic the Eurosceptics should never have been allowed to oppose the EU for the last forty years.

What you are arguing for is totalitarian rule, not Democracy.
That is a childish outlook which can only serve to harm the U.K.

I often concede to a majority decision. I will make my views heard, but if the majority disagree, then I accept that.

To stubbornly refuse to accept and to sabotage the majority decision achieves nothing except stagnation and an impasse. This is a highly damaging state of affairs and is exactly what we are seeing played out.

Providing policy and direction as voted for by a majority of people is a democratic situation. Actively undermining and sabotaging the position of the majority, with the intention of getting your own minority way is anything but democratic. That is called Labour, Socialism or left wing politics.

It’s time for us to unite on something like a second referendum and all of us to commit to supporting the democratic outcome, whatever that may be.

 

[oldgroaner]

That is because it was a very bad deal. Far worse than remaining in the EU and worse than leaving on WTO terms. TM skilfully navigated treacherous path which reached a point where absolutely no one wanted to be. Quite amazing that. The icing on her feces filled Victoria Sponge is that she has managed to get everyone to hate her as well. A round of applause for The Prime Minister.

Let’s have a more pragmatic PM and see where that takes us. TM is utterly useless and will take us nowhere anyone wants to be.

Pragmatism won't get us anywhere, it has been tried and failed already, any deal will always we worse than membership
All Mp's know that.
The problem is that no one is interested in facing the real and only sensible choice
Kill Brexit

 

[oldgroaner]

To stubbornly refuse to accept and to sabotage the majority decision achieves nothing except stagnation and an impasse. This is a highly damaging state of affairs and is exactly what we are seeing played out.

You have described exactly the forces that drove the Brexit process into being?
Can't you see that?
Well done! and yet you now think that the process should never be applied again?
That is hypocrisy
Why are you therefore not condemning the process of trouble causing that ended up with Brexit referendum?
You can't have it both ways

 

[Woosh]

That is because it was a very bad deal. Far worse than remaining in the EU and worse than leaving on WTO terms.

why do you think the EU is going to give the UK a better deal than current membership?
There is no good deal to be had if you want a deal.

 

[oldgroaner]

Providing policy and direction as voted for by a majority of people is a democratic situation. Actively undermining and sabotaging the position of the majority, with the intention of getting your own minority way is anything but democratic. That is called Labour, Socialism or left wing politics.

If you believe this you should be calling for Brexit to be cancelled as it only came about after a generation long campaign of right wing sabotage deliberately directed against the EU.

It's not really worth tyring to explain socialism to someone with a closed mindset on the subject, but I would ask you this

"How many of the Euroseptics that argued,printed blatant lies in the press and waged a campaign of disruption in the EU parliament, and then swindled on behalf of the leave campaign were left wingers?

As I said before, your propaganda is very low grade, apply to Conservative HQ for some more up to date nonsense.

 

[50Hertz]

why do you think the EU is going to give the UK a better deal than current membership?
There is no good deal to be had if you want a deal.

What is a better deal? The benefits of a deal vary from person to person.

 

[50Hertz]

You know what? I'm starting to think it's the 'Remainers' who are educationally challenged.

What with OldGroaner here and his inability to correctly spell the possessive form of 'its' - or Danidl insisting on adding an additional full stop after ending a sentence with a question mark - and now this:

View attachment 28566

I agree.

I saw that the bird who had brief fame in the Harry Pothead films has had a tattoo saying “ #times up” stencilled onto her carcass. FFS. Emma something or other I think her name is. Remain gob-piece.