Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

I'd love to have a reasoned debate

I think we can get to a reasonable debate if we agree to stick to facts and forgo the usual mudslinging like 'the EU is corrupt' or 'racists vote for brexit'. I see nothing wrong with paying the EU for SM access or exit fees against 2 year transition.

 

[Wicky]

Someone has drawn up a pictorial diagram of how UKippers and the extreme right view the rest of the world and it strikes me as being uncannily accurate!

View attachment 26655

Tom

People to get an idea of what Brexit will look for the UK need only have visited Clacton-on-Sea, plus Frinton-on-Sea & Jaywick...

 

[oldtom]

Because I believe that it was inevitable anyway so we may as well get on with it now.

What breathtaking arrogance from someone who seems completely unable to produce in this forum any genuine benefit 'Brexit' might produce! Bereft of any definitive positives that we have waited almost two years to hear, you declare your belief, as described in quotes, as a reason to secede.

From where did you receive such information that gave rise to your belief?

Not content by that specious statement, you go on with:

We will never join the Euro, we are already left out of over 30% of meetings and decision making because of this so whats the point of keep paying into a club that wants different things to you?

Where can I find this information about the UK MEPs being shut out from discussions and prevented from voting when required because I'm not aware of that? I am aware of the attendance record of British MEPs, Farage in particular, and they have been seriously extracting the Michael, collecting salary cheques and expenses without playing any real part in EU business. That aside, why should matters concerning the Euro have any input from the UK MEPs? We chose to eschew the common currency but 20-odd other sovereign member states do have an interest in fiscal matters.

I shan't ask you again to describe the benefits we will enjoy through 'Brexit' as you are clearly bereft of any ideas in that department which makes me believe you voted for 'Brexit' for reasons other than trade, economics or social integration.

You really topped off your useless offering by having the audacity to end it like this:

There is one cast iron reason for you tom.

I cannot believe that your supercilious comment in closing allows you to imagine that what you said in your responses amounts to a reason. I think you should be ashamed to utter such rubbish and attempt to pass it off as a reason to vote for 'Brexit'

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

I was serious groaner.

I took my time and explained. You simply ignored everything, went on a rant and now I'm not being serious...

The idea that someone your age doesn't know that Thatcher ruined our manufacturing base and that ships are somehow a barometer of a successful trading nation in the 21st century is naïve at best...

You took your time and your replies simply showed that you had repeated propaganda .
What you described as a rant was me responding to each of your points.
You obviously don't understand how the EU operates and now you display a lack of Historical knowledge.

The decline of industry here was long term, Thatcher merely was the last straw that broke the camel's back
The fact that you are unaware of that surprised me.

You should also have had the nous to understand that my referencing the parlous state of Shipbuilding and the Merchant marine indicated we are in no position to become a spectacular success in Exporting all over the world after the Brexit.

And yet again cannot point to anything positive that will result from us leaving the EU

 

[oyster]

There are plenty who can tell David Davis and the rest everything that is going to be a problem. But just how does it get through to them the deep and damaging impacts it will have?

An LBC caller told David Davis that he has no idea how his policies on Brexit are affecting British businesses.


Jason from Sutton phoned in to the former Brexit Secretary and said: "My question is how on earth you can get to where you are without knowing and having a clue what's going on on the ground.

"You talk about a free trade deal with the European Union, Canada+++. Your alternative white paper suggests all these things, that we'll use the European Court of Justice and sometimes we won't.

"You've got no idea what's going on on the ground today. There's no time left, David."

He described a medical supplies company who buy their materials from the EU and asked Mr Davis: "This company cannot buy the products from their European suppliers because the European suppliers don't know what's happening with insurance. They can insure the goods to the border of the channel, but can't insure it to the border."

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/caller-tells-david-davis-you-have-no-idea/

 

[oldtom]

People to get an idea of what Brexit will look for the UK need only have visited Clacton-on-Sea, plus Frinton-on-Sea & Jaywick...

It's such a shame about Jaywick as it could and should be a nice little seaside resort. Instead, it's like a pikey traveller site only not quite so posh!

Clacton, of course, is a step up in class by comparison and there's a good chance your car will still have its alloys attached when you return from the beach.

Frinton, I actually like as a seaside town and it's definitely middle-class......or the locals would like you to think so! On my last visit just a few weeks ago, I noted that the charity shops definitely had a better class of tat than those at Clacton or Walton-on-the-Naze.

I do take your point 'Wicky' and I suspect that those places along with many, many others will be disaster zones once the ramifications of secession from the EU begin to bite......unless, of course, 'Brexit' is stopped and there remains a possibility that just such an outcome may yet prevail.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

I see nothing wrong with paying the EU for SM access or exit fees against 2 year transition.

I do! We already enjoy the best deal in town and pay a reasonable price for the benefits it has provided over the years and continues to provide.

Why should we swap that for anything just 'nearly' as good? The future for the countries of Europe is inside an EU which will eventually encompass several other states and will be one of just three major trading blocks eventually.

I see no justification whatsoever for 'Brexit'.

Tom

 

[Fingers]

.

You took your time and your replies simply showed that you had repeated propaganda .
What you described as a rant was me responding to each of your points.
You obviously don't understand how the EU operates and now you display a lack of Historical knowledge.

The decline of industry here was long term, Thatcher merely was the last straw that broke the camel's back
The fact that you are unaware of that surprised me.

You should also have had the nous to understand that my referencing the parlous state of Shipbuilding and the Merchant marine indicated we are in no position to become a spectacular success in Exporting all over the world after the Brexit.

And yet again cannot point to anything positive that will result from us leaving the EU

Well old groaner I could point you towards the French.

And Macron. Heard of him?

The problem with the EU is it’s many countries trying to be one. They never will be. Germany tried it before.

Germany is trying again. I want no part of it.

We are not states. We are sovereign countries.

We should have an EEC mentality. Trade with a security plus.

Your lack of knowledge about closed meetings in the EU about is quite easy to google btw.

It’s not a secret.

 

[Fingers]

I do! We already enjoy the best deal in town and pay a reasonable price for the benefits it has provided over the years and continues to provide.

Why should we swap that for anything just 'nearly' as good? The future for the countries of Europe is inside an EU which will eventually encompass several other states and will be one of just three major trading blocks eventually.

I see no justification whatsoever for 'Brexit'.

Tom

With respect. You’re either a scared old man or have business interests.

Give our Young’uns the chance to reach across the globe. The world doesn’t end in Poland.

 

[Woosh]

Why should we swap that for anything just 'nearly' as good?

there are plenty of other reasons why we should just pay the money and choose to join in a subset of SM rules.
Look at EFTA Court versus the ECJ, immigration, in work benefits, industrial strategy, corporation tax, trade partnerships with specific countries, CAP, CFP, budget contribution etc.
Temporary EEA membership eases a lot of division.
JC is wrong to attack TM on her Chequers plan.
Everybody knows that the EU won't go for Chequers, but it is a sellable plan and that will shut up the ERG.

 

[Fingers]

I think we can get to a reasonable debate if we agree to stick to facts and forgo the usual mudslinging like 'the EU is corrupt' or 'racists vote for brexit'. I see nothing wrong with paying the EU for SM access or exit fees against 2 year transition.

I’ve literally seen no facts here.

 

[Woosh]

I’ve literally seen no facts here.

you join the thread a little late, we have gone over a lot of details but there is no problem to present your own analysis for peer review.

 

[oldgroaner]

.



Well old groaner I could point you towards the French.

And Macron. Heard of him?

The problem with the EU is it’s many countries trying to be one. They never will be. Germany tried it before.

Germany is trying again. I want no part of it.

We are not states. We are sovereign countries.

We should have an EEC mentality. Trade with a security plus.

Your lack of knowledge about closed meetings in the EU about is quite easy to google btw.

It’s not a secret.

More comedy from you?
Germany was 29 separate states and is now one, but not according to you?

We are a state, in fact we are a union of states and you like it or not a part of it.
Obviously someone has been putting nonsense ideas about sovereignty into your head, so instead of sharing it with others you imagine that you can clutch it greedily to your bosom?

What is the difference to "Giving it up to the EU" and the Welsh and Scots and Northern Irish giving it up to Westminster"?

Incidentally what are the benefits we will get by sharing it with over 120 nations in the WTO, or any other trade agreement?
Do try to understand the principle involved as you obviously do not

Any international agreement on trade carries a trade off in Sovereignty and requires acceptance of a Foreign court somewhere or other along the line.

 

[oldgroaner]

I’ve literally seen no facts here.

Wearing Brexit Goggles screens them out.
Remember?
You are fun, silly but fun.
Were are your Facts that Brexit is a good idea?

 

[oldgroaner]

there are plenty of other reasons why we should just pay the money and choose to join in a subset of SM rules.
Look at EFTA Court versus the ECJ, immigration, in work benefits, industrial strategy, corporation tax, trade partnerships with specific countries, CAP, CFP, budget contribution etc.
Temporary EEA membership eases a lot of division.
JC is wrong to attack TM on her Chequers plan.
Everybody knows that the EU won't go for Chequers, but it is a sellable plan and that will shut up the ERG.

Too complex for the audience in this case

 

[oldgroaner]

.



Well old groaner I could point you towards the French.

And Macron. Heard of him?

The problem with the EU is it’s many countries trying to be one. They never will be. Germany tried it before.

Germany is trying again. I want no part of it.

We are not states. We are sovereign countries.

We should have an EEC mentality. Trade with a security plus.

Your lack of knowledge about closed meetings in the EU about is quite easy to google btw.

It’s not a secret.

Now at last we see, it's the notion of the EEC again and you feel the country was somehow conned into the change to the EU is that it?
I'm all for a United States of Europe and "Closed meetings" take place all the time in Governments world wide, is this somehow news to you?

Cameron negotiated pretty much what you wanted before the referendum and it was rejected "No further integration" remember?

Undoubtedly your hope that Europe won't unify more is a none starter, and withdrawal from membership has gifted Europe to German power, something our position inside Europe could have affected.
Brexit is a gift to German power in Europe and they will benefit from our cowardly retreat

Why do you not want to be part of a United Europe? do explain the logic of this point of view.
By leaving all we have done is help bring about the very things that Brexit voter's don't want, and at our expense too,

And left us at the mercy of the least Competent politicians (and that includes all parties) who are going to attempt the impossible of making a country with no trade deals worthy of the name a success, or at least to the extent that the rich don't lose out...
We will end up like Cuba, parked next to a monster economy and poor.

 

[oldtom]

Everybody knows that the EU won't go for Chequers, but it is a sellable plan and that will shut up the ERG.

There is a better plan - A50 withdrawal! The terms and conditions of EU membership are much better than any other trade agreement available anywhere.

In 4 months time, the € will be 20 years old although it took about three years after 1999 before it became the official 'hands-on' currency among the majority of EU states. The UK along with a handful of other states opted to retain its existing currency and in the case of the UK, a substantial devaluation of sterling occurred as a direct result of the 'Brexit' referendum and the subsequent fears arising from that decision and the implementation of the A50 provisions.

Right from the outset, predictions of doom and disaster for the € have been articulated by 'clever' British-based financial experts yet that currency has survived unscathed, unlike the £. Because business does not like uncertainty, the £ has remained depressed against both the $ and the € and only a complete change of direction on the part of the UK government is likely to improve the value of sterling against other major currencies.

As I see it, 'Brexit' holds no advantage whatsoever for the British people and is likely to put in train a series of business closures which will impact most on the poorest people in the land. I have no doubt that an announcement of A50 withdrawal tomorrow would see a 10% improvement in the value of Sterling virtually overnight.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

.The problem with the EU is it’s many countries trying to be one. They never will be. Germany tried it before.

Germany is trying again. I want no part of it.

We are not states. We are sovereign countries.

That is simply drivel!

Do you have something against Germany? Do you understand sovereignty? Have you ever read modern history?

It is no longer a mystery why you have been so reluctant to furnish the forum with any benefits 'Brexit' is likely to bring about - you really don't have a clue about what the EU is about in the first place.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

The news today has the fact that 'Amazon' has now emulated the recent announcement that 'Apple' is worth over $1tn.

I wonder if there is any danger of them paying their taxes properly any time soon!

Tom

 

[Woosh]

The news today has the fact that 'Amazon' has now emulated the recent announcement that 'Apple' is worth over $1tn.

I wonder if there is any danger of them paying their taxes properly any time soon!

Tom

no.
they will soon become 'too big to pay' - they'll control the economic destiny of some countries.