Brexit, for once some facts.

[Fingers]

But that's what individual sovereignty does. It's precisely because the EU does not dictate that those countries allow those things they have control over to happen. You are doing exactly what Zlatan does regularly in here, blaming the EU for things they have no control over, being only national.

As for policies that suit big business, how come the EU have enforced immense fines against giants like Microsoft and VW for their consumer abuses? The last fine for VW was a swingeing 880 million euros for price fixing in their Scania division and they've previously been successively fined 8 million and 40 million euros for price fixing of their cars. Hardly business friendly policy.

It's the facts about the EU that interest me, not the fictions that so many Brexiters imagine exist.
.

I think what your're doing, and it's a common mistake in regard to a lot of remainers, is thinking you know why the majority of the country voted to leave.

We are not one person and it's not one reason.

The EU allows companies such as Amazon, Apple, Google etc to choose their country of residency and let the member states fight amongst themselves over who get pick up the crumbs of what taxes they will pay. Is that fair? I'd say that' very freindly to Big Business.

The Scania division is fighting that fine and tbh that's penuts compared to the emmision scandal. Ironically the US is looking at a 46bn fine whilst the EU is looking at an absolute fraction of that. Is this because of German influence within the EU. Corruption? Collusion? Or just another day in the offices of the EU?

 

[anotherkiwi]

The EU allows companies such as Amazon, Apple, Google etc to choose their country of residency and let the member states fight amongst themselves over who get pick up the crumbs of what taxes they will pay. Is that fair? I'd say that' very freindly to Big Business.

The Scania division is fighting that fine and tbh that's penuts compared to the emmision scandal. Ironically the US is looking at a 46bn fine whilst the EU is looking at an absolute fraction of that. Is this because of German influence within the EU. Corruption? Collusion? Or just another day in the offices of the EU?

1. It doesn't allow that, it doesn't have the mandate to intervene in any way. EU countries are sovereign when it comes to tax breaks to attract business.

2. I agree that the enforcement of fines for emissions is not enough in Europe. Remember however that the US is trying to bring down VAG which is a competitor to the US auto industry. I think that the US fine is a bit over the top as are most of their fines and penalties, often out of touch with reality and the damage caused.

 

[Fingers]

1. It doesn't allow that, it doesn't have the mandate to intervene in any way. EU countries are sovereign when it comes to tax breaks to attract business.

2. I agree that the enforcement of fines for emissions is not enough in Europe. Remember however that the US is trying to bring down VAG which is a competitor to the US auto industry. I think that the US fine is a bit over the top as are most of their fines and penalties, often out of touch with reality and the damage caused.

1. Ireland is so terrified of Apple leaving it has to be forced by the EU to collect its taxes...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/05/ireland-reaches-deal-with-apple-to-collect-13bn-in-back-taxes

I'd say that's intervening....

If the EU was fair it would make the same tax rules whever Apple is domiciled. It's not though and it's agenda is to try and make Apple move to a another part of the EU. Poland has been mooted. They tried the same as a threat to us with Nissan during the Brexit vote.

2. Agreed the sum is crazy but thats the system in the states. They go high and get half.

 

[flecc]

I think what your're doing, and it's a common mistake in regard to a lot of remainers, is thinking you know why the majority of the country voted to leave.

I'm aware that many remainers have done that, but I'm not one of them. I've heard many reasons why people voted Leave and no doubt there are more that I haven't heard of.

I also agree that the EU is very far from perfect, though recognising that's inevitable in an organisation that depends on the agreement of 28 countries.

But I also see the benefits to each individual and country and am confident that leaving entails considerable loss to both, even Leavers admitting to that and thinking it worthwhile and temporary. That is where I part company, believing the losses will be permanent and cumulative.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Wow. What an amazing set of balanced views!

LOL!!

Dear oh dear.

Care to share yours? you are very Welcome to

 

[oldtom]

Perhaps 'Fingers' will provide us with some tangible, recognisable benefits the UK is likely to gain by exiting the EU. That would be a real novelty in this forum!

Being old enough to remember well the times before the EU, or the Common Market to begin with, the UK was in a mess and our socio-economic problems have been exacerbated exponentially under the capitalist governments in place since 1979.

I'd like my grandchildren to be first class citizens in a modern socialist democracy on friendly terms with all of the European mainland peoples and I believe a US of Europe is hugely desirable in the longer term. If we leave the EU, we will be but a dot in the sea, while Europe marches on, enjoying economic stability. We will never be able to recover our position as a respected nation for decades, if ever.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

The EU allows companies such as Amazon, Apple, Google etc to choose their country of residency and let the member states fight amongst themselves over who get pick up the crumbs of what taxes they will pay. Is that fair? I'd say that' very freindly to Big
Business

Of course it lets those companies now, or we would necessarily have Nissan and Co here, would we?
if it morphs into a Superstate with powers that go with that, it will be able to exert more control, where as a Club it has none.
This is a basis misunderstanding about the EU it is not in control of Sovereign States within it, and never has been

 

[anotherkiwi]

1. Ireland is so terrified of Apple leaving it has to be forced by the EU to collect its taxes...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/05/ireland-reaches-deal-with-apple-to-collect-13bn-in-back-taxes

I'd say that's intervening....

The EU is acting in its role of rule enforcer, it did not set the tax rate which Ireland imposes on the US corporations who have their EU headquarters there, the sovereign Irish government fixed those rates. But if a corporation does not pay what they agreed to pay in taxes then the EU steps in to make them honour their obligations. Yes it is a little more complicated than that because the Irish government "forgot" to collect those taxes.

Who is the vilain, Ireland, the EU or Apple? The richest company on earth can't afford to pay taxes? Pull the other one...

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't think there is any point trying to engage in any sort of discussion tbh. This is a closed talking shop.

All I will say is nothing much will change, certainly in the short term and whipping yourselves into a frenzy with constant quotes from the Guardian et al isn't going to do your hearts much good.

Yes I voted out and I'm happy with my choice. Not overly pleased with the idiots conducting the negotiations but then I didn't vote for them in the first place...

The EU is falling apart. Its a dieing old fashioned model developed in the last century with last century ideas. I hope a new system will emerge that is fairer for all concerned.

Congratulations, that post has cheered me up! funniest thing I've heard today, let me see now.
You voted to leave a Huge ever expanding EU with extensive Trade agreements on the basis of continuous blame being laid at their door for the incompetence of our local Parliament.

And your solution? to leave the EU and place your faith in this same Incompetent Parliament, (which you agree is exactly that) to endanger the future of the country by tossing away all the favourable trade deals leaving us with perhaps with luck one or two, or even the WTO (which is in far greater danger of collapse then the EU will ever be)

The EU is part of a Historical trend that saw Germany federate from many smaller states, and frankly collapsing back into being on our own is exactly what you described only worse.
It's a dead and buried old fashioned model doomed to at best barely surviving

Now let's get down to basics, how do you see us benefiting from what you voted for?
What will "make it so?"
And my I ask about this sentence?
"I hope a new system will emerge that is fairer for all concerned."
Had we bothered we could have worked for changes we approved of while members of the EU, why did you vote to bail out?
Did you think we were too weak to make any difference?
And in exactly what way did you think the operations of the EU are unfair? lets be honest and truthful here, your assumptions about the actual remit of the EU are rather coloured by the Media here and not based on evidence you can actually check online

 

[Fingers]

Congratulations, that post has cheered me up! funniest thing I've heard today, let me see now.
You voted to leave a Huge ever expanding EU with extensive Trade agreements on the basis of continuous blame being laid at their door for the incompetence of our local Parliament.

And your solution? to leave the EU and place your faith in this same Incompetent Parliament, (which you agree is exactly that) to endanger the future of the country by tossing away all the favourable trade deals leaving us with perhaps with luck one or two, or even the WTO (which is in far greater danger of collapse then the EU will ever be)

The EU is part of a Historical trend that saw Germany federate from many smaller states, and frankly collapsing back into being on our own is exactly what you described only worse.
It's a dead and buried old fashioned model doomed to at best barely surviving

Now let's get down to basics, how do you see us benefiting from what you voted for?
What will "make it so?"
And my I ask about this sentence?
"I hope a new system will emerge that is fairer for all concerned."
Had we bothered we could have worked for changes we approved of while members of the EU, why did you vote to bail out?
Did you think we were too weak to make any difference?
And in exactly what way did you think the operations of the EU are unfair? lets be honest and truthful here, your assumptions about the actual remit of the EU are rather coloured by the Media here and not based on evidence you can actually check online

As suspected this isn't really a debate is it?

I am willing to forgive the frothing as I can see you are genuinely worried.

The fact is I can't give you any facts as to what will happen in the future.
Sorry about that.

I will say that not much will change in the short term. I'm probably not half your age but I remember well the doom mongers and the gnashing and wailing of teeth when the Y2K bug was going to wipe us out and then if we didn't join the Euro we would be ruined.

The one thing I don't get is the utter devotion to a political union. Europe isn't going anywhere. I get you are worried about Juncker and Barnier but ultimately sense will prevail and these rotweillers will be reined in by their paymasters. Its in their interests to fight for the EU. It's not in the EU's individual states to see their countries lose out. Plus the EU is very much relying on our 40 billion. No deal no dough.

It will all be alright in the end. I sometimes think that is some remainers worst nightmare.

 

[flecc]

It will all be alright in the end. I sometimes think that is some remainers worst nightmare.

Not me, I'll be delighted if it works out well.

With a miracle like that I might even start believing in God and the tooth fairy.
.

 

[Fingers]

Not me, I'll be delighted if it works out well.

With a miracle like that I might even start believing in God and the tooth fairy.
.

Unfortunately there is no God.

 

[oldgroaner]

As suspected this isn't really a debate is it?

I am willing to forgive the frothing as I can see you are genuinely worried.

The fact is I can't give you any facts as to what will happen in the future.
Sorry about that.

I will say that not much will change in the short term. I'm probably not half your age but I remember well the doom mongers and the gnashing and wailing of teeth when the Y2K bug was going to wipe us out and then if we didn't join the Euro we would be ruined.

The one thing I don't get is the utter devotion to a political union. Europe isn't going anywhere. I get you are worried about Juncker and Barnier but ultimately sense will prevail and these rotweillers will be reined in by their paymasters. Its in their interests to fight for the EU. It's not in the EU's individual states to see their countries lose out. Plus the EU is very much relying on our 40 billion. No deal no dough.

It will all be alright in the end. I sometimes think that is some remainers worst nightmare.

I am not one of the Doom mongers as you put it, and as I have posted many times, not too concerned at the financial aspect either, can I ask what you have against the idea of an EU superstate?
The lesson of history is here on this island where there were several Saxon kingdoms that merged into one.
And Germany that was 29 separate states and Kingdoms
For the Human race to survive forming into larger and larger groups is so obviously the way forward that it is hard to understand what logical reason can exist for thinking that reverting back to a smaller political unit is a good idea.
We may as well go back to the Saxon Kingdoms.
You are I take it joking that the EU can't shrug off the measly £40 Billion?

Look at the Example of German reunification
"This exchange rate made the East German formerly-Communist economy even more noncompetitive than it already was. It is estimated that industrial production in East Germany crashed by 70% between 1989 and 1991. There was an exodus of people, fire-sale privatization of all state assets and huge unemployment.

In order to re-build the East, Germany had to invest several times the amount of money it had gotten under the Marshall Plan. Total cost estimates range from 250 billion EUR at the low end up to 1.2 trillion EUR at the high end, depending on whether one considers only the earmarked "solidarity tax" paid by people in Western Germany or the total amount of money that can credibly be traced to the reunification and rebuilding.

German society accepted this cost, because East and West Germans always saw themselves as one people, no matter the Cold War rhetoric. It went without saying that wages and pension levels should not be significantly different in the East and the West.

They shrugged off more than twenty times the sum you mentioned!
Relying on our £40 Billion? who has been kidding you with that nonsense? it's peanuts against the Scale of EU operations and will amount to a need to modify some projects, but not cancel any.
This notion is typical of the totally fantastic ideas present here about the strength of our bargaining position

And oddly I agree that it will be alright in the end, as inevitably we will be absorbed into the EU, willing or no.
Sadly in a much diminished role as far as influence on affairs go, and in the meantime when they say jump, we will ask "How high?"

 

[oldgroaner]

Unfortunately there is no God.

Agreed

 

[oyster]

With a miracle like that I might even start believing in God and the tooth fairy.

Do tooth fairies give out money for broken off bits of teeth?

Could do with some contributions for my recent emergency dental work...

 

[Danidl]

I feel I need to respond on this topic. Whether Apple engaged in illegal activity is still under judicial review. Whether Ireland's Revenue Commission was complicit in this i just do not know. But i am sure, and from personal experience, that Irish Revenue is very careful , very powerful, defwnds its territory well and does not brook any political interference in its activities...
I certainly would have preferred it had the irish state , just put up a half hearted defense and started to claw in the money... There are plenty of things we could usefully spend 13 billion on.. But they have found themselves in a situation where they have asked to be a" friend of the court", at the review.

I would need to refer to the opinion dropped in at the end of the Guardian piece,.. it's an opinion not a fact, although you Mr Fingers have assumed it's a fact.
Why has ireland been more successful in attracting these US corporations, than its size would suggest... And it is not the tax rate..although that does not hurt.. there are other very tangible reasons.
1. The Irish consitution is similar in structure to that of the US. Therefore it is easier for us corporate lawyers to understand what's going on. .. The UK is the only other common law jurisdiction in Europe.,.. but then you don't have a consitution..( .An unwritten set of rules or understandings going back a thousand years, is not a consitution. ).
2. The time difference of 5 to 9 hours works very much in Ireland's favour.. (the UK would have the same advantage, but look up #1).
3. We speak and understand English..
4. Government departments have attempted at every stage to link into the next coming thing.. and our public servents have been smart and diligent. .. originally computer manufacturing, then peripherals, then software localisation, then social media, but also pharma, biopharma and aircraft financial services.
5. There are other attributes, but modesty forbids me mentioning charm, etc... . We do not go out of our way to antagonise..

 

[oldgroaner]

From the BBC
"
The UK Labour Party's ruling body has agreed to adopt in full an international definition of anti-Semitism, after months of rows.

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's definition was incorporated into Labour's code of conduct in July - but not all its examples were included.

The party will now incorporate all 11 examples, its National Executive Committee (NEC) has decided.

But it will also publish a statement aimed at protecting free speech.

A Labour statement said: "The NEC has today adopted all of the IHRA (the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance) examples of anti-Semitism, in addition to the IHRA definition which Labour adopted in 2016, alongside a statement which ensures this will not in any way undermine freedom of expression on Israel or the rights of Palestinians.

Needless to say this didn't go down well with these people
"
Campaign group Labour Against anti-Semitism said: "We are disappointed by the decision of Labour's governing body, the NEC, to diminish the IHRA working definition of anti-Semitism via the attachment of a "clarification" that risks giving racists in the party a get-out-of-jail card.

"The NEC has been told repeatedly that it needs to adopt the IHRA in full, without caveats or conditions, if it wants the Labour Party to begin the process of dealing with its anti-Semitism crisis. It has ignored the requests of the Jewish community and denied the fundamental right of that community to define its own discrimination."

Meaning of course that criticism of Israel is taboo to them
Tough!
Who are they to deny our community the fundamental right to decide what we can and can't criticise?
Time the labour party told them the matter is closed, now take it up with the Tory party

A readers comment in the Independent
"
32 minutes ago
The full IHRA definition accepted by a collosal 4% of countries worldwide = "universally accepted" or "accepted by a majority of countries worldwide" on Radio 4 this morning. Scarely Orwellian that the media can so BLATANTLY lie to us."

Universally accepted? really?

 

[oldtom]

I get you are worried about Juncker and Barnier

What causes you to imagine that any remainer is at all worried about those two individuals?

The one thing I don't get is the utter devotion to a political union.

Why don't you 'get' it? Do you think such a progressive idea is a bad thing? Have you ever heard the expression, 'Rome wasn't built in a day'?

Europe isn't going anywhere.

Are you making things up as you go along just for devilment? You seem to be suggesting that the EU will come apart if the UK leaves but there is no evidence to suggest that is likely to happen unless, perhaps, you are privy to information kept secret from the rest of us.

Do you actually have any inkling of any kind of benefit whatsoever that the UK's people will enjoy once outside of the EU, should indeed that happen......or is it all just a lark, a big gamble that you are happy to take, using the next generation's prospects as your stake?

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Unfortunately there is no God.

Like your views on the EU, you are just taking a wild guess based on no evidence......unless you have some you might wish to share with the rest of us?

Tom

 

[oldtom]

The UK Labour Party's ruling body has agreed to adopt in full an international definition of anti-Semitism, after months of rows.
Meaning of course that criticism of Israel is taboo to them
Tough!
Who are they to deny our community the fundamental right to decide what we can and can't criticise?
Time the labour party told them the matter is closed, now take it up with the Tory party

This is two things:

1) The result of an orchestrated campaign by Jews and tories to discredit the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn in particular.

Culminating in,

2) A classic example of the tail wagging the dog.

Tom