Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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brexit is brexit. That's the plan.
what other plan are you talking about? we don't need any other plan.
Neither the EU nor the UK government want a plan. Both sides set up enough road blocks to stop negotiation.
That isn't a plan, it isn't anything other than a shambles.
Great from the EU side, disastrous on ours, they win either way.
Think tanks are supposed to cover future scenarios and plan for them so that dangerous situations can be anticipated and prevented when they arise.
They had plenty of time to do that up to and beyond the Referendum.
 
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oldgroaner

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From the Fascism for Dummies Book in the Express
"
Remainers launch Project Fear to ‘CASH IN on panic’ over Brexit no deal, economist says
AN EXPERT on trade law says some Remainers are issuing misleading claims to inflame fears of reaching no deal with the European Union and cash in on market panic. Professor David Collins, an authority on the World Trade Organisation, said claims that goods would stop at the border without a deal are wrong..

My my! fancy using the very essence of the leave campaign's driving motivation and blaming the Remainers for it!

"That's good and original my boy
But the parts that are original aren't good
And the parts that are Good aren't original!

WC Fields...
 
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oldgroaner

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From the independent this morning
"
Brexit: Hundreds of Whitehall officials leave department in charge of EU withdrawal, new data reveals
Exclusive: The extraordinary turnover has led to claims of 'deep instability' at the heart of Brexit

According to the turnover data obtained under freedom of information, a staggering 357 staff have left the Dexeu in just two years.
Yet the total number of those employed at the Whitehall department amounts to only 665, indicating a turnover rate of more than 50 per cent in that period.

Tom Brake MP, the Liberal Democrats’ Brexit spokesperson, said: “If it wasn’t enough that the country is being torn out of the EU by the incompetent leadership of Theresa May and her dysfunctional and divided cabinet, it would appear that the government’s Brexit department turnover is higher than that for managers in the English Premier League.”

They would probably get better results if they press ganged drunks from local pubs on Saturday nights....

Well if it worked to help the Royal Navy create the British Empire......

Sorry, the unintended Black humour of Brexit got to me again! :eek:
 
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Woosh

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That isn't a plan, it isn't anything other than a shambles.
Great from the EU side, disastrous on ours, they win either way.
Think tanks are supposed to cover future scenarios and plan for them so that dangerous situations can be anticipated and prevented when they arise.
They had plenty of time to do that up to and beyond the Referendum.
I doubt that anybody would win anything substantial, it's more of a loss-loss situation as in most divorces. Both sides want to kick that can down the road for a couple of years, hoping that people who voted for brexit change their mind when they see how difficult it is to build new relationships.
 

oldgroaner

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I doubt that anybody would win anything substantial, it's more of a loss-loss situation as in most divorces. Both sides want to kick that can down the road for a couple of years, hoping that people who voted for brexit change their mind when they see how difficult it is to build new relationships.
The "plan" as I suggested, would have been of the "Exit Brexit , smelling of Roses" variety, and it should have been deployed before now.
Not this "Dumb insolence" dog paddle approach.
 

Woosh

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there is no better plan than a GE because of our system. Brexit is created and run by the conservative party, you have to remove them from power at the next GE if you want to reverse brexit.
Personally, I am not unhappy with a trial separation.
 

oldtom

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Here are two old pieces of film footage with a quarter of a century separating them. They depict the bully boys under the spell of fascist rabblerousers, the same kind of evil monsters who have given the deadbeats of British society a cause once again with their racist-littered speeches over the EU membership withdrawal fiasco in which we are now embroiled.

The first one dates back to the 1930s and I have seen the clip many times but the second seems to have slipped from my memory. I hope they don't cause the page-jumping that some have reported with video clips.



Tom
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
In post #34994, I mentioned the major countries with which the British government has repeatedly declared are our friends. One of those, Saudi Arabia has been accused of committing war crimes by the 'Human Rights Watch' organisation. Most recently, they identified an attack on a school bus less than 4 weeks ago:

40560283_866654210389090_1110687463392673792_n.jpg

You can read a fuller, more detailed version here:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/09/02/yemen-coalition-bus-bombing-apparent-war-crime

This government does not act in my name.

Tom
 
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Nev

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They would probably get better results if they press ganged drunks from local pubs on Saturday nights....

Well if it worked to help the Royal Navy create the British Empire...…
Until recently I assumed the people who pressed drunks into the RN would take any youngish males from anywhere they could get them. This was not at all the case. The gangs predominantly operated in Port Towns, and they were after merchant sea men. Working on a sailing ship was extremely dangerous work that required skilled and experienced men.

Taking just any drunk young guy from any town, who had had no sailing experience what so ever would have been a total waste of time.

The gangs were after men who would be a help and not a hinderance to the successful operation of each ship.
 

oyster

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From the Guardian - two Simons write about two dangerous people with bizarre hair:

Boris Johnson’s latest Brexit outburst combines madness and mendacity


Simon Jenkins
This is the worst way to stage a Tory leadership challenge. The Chequers deal is not “humiliating” or a scandal

Never trust a man who can’t master his metaphors. Boris Johnson’s latest outburst has Theresa May’s Brexit tank flying a white flag while losing a wrestling match after being locked in a car boot as it cherrypicks a magnetic field. Is this the scrambled mind that reportedly called the Chequers deal a triumph a month ago – before deciding that writing Telegraph columns were easier than politics. On that point Johnson was right.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/03/boris-johnson-brexit-outburst-tory-leadership-challenge

Trump is dangerous again as his Kim Jong-un ‘breakthrough’ turns sour

Simon Tisdall
Faced by the collapse of his only diplomatic ‘achievement’ and worried about support at home, the president could go rogue

Remember all the hoo-ha over Donald Trump’s summit in June with North Korea’s maverick dictator, Kim Jong-un? With typical immodesty, Trump proclaimed a historic diplomatic breakthrough. Overnight, his Love Island-style tryst in Singapore had made the world a better place. “Everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office,” Trump tweeted. “There is no longer a nuclear threat from North Korea.”

Hogwash. North Korea is fast emerging as the definitive example of how Trump takes a pre-existing international crisis and makes it worse. Claiming negotiating skills and a political prescience he does not possess, lacking thought-through and coherent strategies and ignoring the experience of more knowledgeable predecessors, he crassly blunders into sensitive situations, loud mouth blaring. US policy in Iran, Syria and Palestine has been similarly, anarchically upended.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/03/donald-trump-dangerous-kim-jong-un-president
 
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oldgroaner

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Until recently I assumed the people who pressed drunks into the RN would take any youngish males from anywhere they could get them. This was not at all the case. The gangs predominantly operated in Port Towns, and they were after merchant sea men. Working on a sailing ship was extremely dangerous work that required skilled and experienced men.

Taking just any drunk young guy from any town, who had had no sailing experience what so ever would have been a total waste of time.

The gangs were after men who would be a help and not a hinderance to the successful operation of each ship.
Sadly not True at all
What you quoted was this pious Hope



In reality this was like the "Pirates Code"

As in
"Impress Seamen only?
How do we tell e'm from landsmen, they could be lying to evade the "Press"
Any way "It's only a Guide really"
We're the Press Gang aint we?"

the real truth was this
"The lawless press-gangs were no respecters of persons. In vain did apprentices and landsmen claim exemption. They were skulking sailors in disguise, or would make good seamen at the first scent of salt-water; and were carried off to the sea ports. Press-gangs were the terror of citizens and apprentices in London, of laborers in villages, and of artisans in the remotest inland towns.

"Patrolling in or near sea ports, the press gang would try to find men aged between 15 and 55 with seafaring or river-boat experience, but this was not essential; those with no experience were called "landsmen". From 1740, landsmen were legally exempt from impressment, but this was on occasion ignored in wartime unless the person seized was an apprentice or a "gentleman".[16] Two landsmen were considered by captains to be the equivalent of one able seaman. If a landsman was able to prove his status to the Admiralty he was usually released. Court records do however show fights breaking out as people attempted to avoid what was perceived as wrongful impressment, and the London Times reported occasions when press gangs instituted a "hot press" (ignoring protections against impressment) in order to man the navy."

After all you don't need to be a seaman to man a cannon or swing a cutlass, do you? and that was the logic that prevailed.
"
The resulting dilution of skills was acceptable on large warships, where only 20 per cent of the crew was needed for skilled work aloft. The rest of the work, including the heavy hauling, was done by the 'landmen' or 'waisters' - those who worked in the waist area of the ship.

By contrast, the prime seamen, rated as Able or Ordinary, saw themselves as an elite group within a vertically stratified working community. The topmen, who worked on the highest yards, spent much of their day aloft, in the tops, which on a battleship would be spacious areas out of sight of the officers, and far above the inferior members of the crew. They would form their own mess, a group of six to ten men who cooked and ate together, and avoided 'waisters', marines and other deck-bound labourers.
 
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oldgroaner

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the Sun clearly don't understand the meaning of "Grass roots"
They are referring to yet another festering sore on the Gross body of the Tory party
"
However it comes as the chances of the PM’s White Paper on exiting the EU could be thrown out have risen with the news 20 Tory MPs have joined a grassroots campaign to destroy it.

"
The Conservative politicians have signed up to the Stand Up 4 Brexit group, which has vowed to see her White Paper proposals ripped up.

This sordid and disloyal group of Tory rebels includes several former ministers and members of the Cabinet including Priti Patel and Iain Duncan Smith.

According to the Times they have made a joint public commitment to scupper the plans, which are due to be voted on by Parliament this autumn."

How many more lunatic Fringe schoolkid gangs can the Tory party spew out?
before long they will all have one "Research" or "Stand up 4 Brexit" type personal cabal each.
It seems that they are all morphing into wannabee Farages!
 
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Nev

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Thanks for that extremely detailed reply oldgroaner. I assumed Dan Snow (historian) in his series "Empire of the Seas" would have been a reliable source of information. It would appear either he or his researchers were wrong in this respect.
 

oldgroaner

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Thanks for that extremely detailed reply oldgroaner. I assumed Dan Snow (historian) in his series "Empire of the Seas" would have been a reliable source of information. It would appear either he or his researchers were wrong in this respect.
I'm not surprised, as these programmes set out to make us believe their version of History, and they are very confident and appear authoritative.
They also have a tendency to trot out "official versions" of History rather than factual ones!

The actual information is out there, after all if you think of how many men were needed to man a warship and only a fifth of them actually handled the sailing aspect, and that in battle the navy lost a lot of men on the gun decks in broadside battles, plus there were many unskilled jobs like working capstans that simply required broad backs, no captain would waste skilled Sailors that are hard to replace in those jobs would he?
That was the lot of "Expendable Landsmen" the original source of the term "Cannon Fodder"
And that included Children who carried powder and ammunition to the guns "powder monkeys"

This does demonstrate that we are only fed partial information in these programs, and they don't trouble themselves to get down to details.
In Hull, we had a long history of the "Press" and are well aware of how they were not liable to go back to the ship without some victims, no matter who!
 
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flecc

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In Hull, we had a long history of the "Press" and are well aware of how they were not liable to go back to the ship without some victims, no matter who!
Now we have the Modern Slavery Act. I wonder what legal status National Service would have in respect of that act if it were reintroduced?
.
 
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Woosh

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I watched JRM interviewed by the BBC this afternoon: he said that Michel Barnier agrees with him that Chequers proposal is 'rubbish'. So does Labour, LibDems, Justine Greening etc. and yet none of them has any better idea.
Polls confirm that only 15% of the electorate support chequers proposal. So if Chequers is rubbish and nobody has any better idea, then we have at least achieved the first consensus: voting for brexit is easy, delivering it is not.
 
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oyster

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voting for brexit is easy
I understand what you mean - but it would not have been easy for me to vote for brexit. Probably being threatened with something extremely unpleasant!

Not for one moment do I pretend that I could foresee all the difficult issues that have come out, but I most certainly did see quite a number of them.
 

oldgroaner

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I understand what you mean - but it would not have been easy for me to vote for brexit. Probably being threatened with something extremely unpleasant!

Not for one moment do I pretend that I could foresee all the difficult issues that have come out, but I most certainly did see quite a number of them.
What is now patently obvious to all, surely, is that the leave promoting political faction did not understand the consequences of their notion of "Brexit" that they were selling to the Public,
For if they did they should be jailed for Sabotage.

And Brexit Voters no matter how often they deny it, did not "Know what they were voting for"
They thought that they did, and most will cling to that idea until it becomes too painful to cling to.

They were swindled, and to make it worse, if we are prepared to be generous to them, the swindlers had no more idea than the public of what would happen afterwards. Despite all the warnings.

It's as simple as that, and those still championing Leave are circling like Vultures to make a killing on the Public's loss, with no more plan on offer than vague promises like "It won't be too bad for 50 years"
to cover their real motives.
National Asset Stripping, and a cowed cheap labour source to be abused for Profit.
 
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oldgroaner

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From the Independent this morning
"
The new study was carried out by data analysis experts Focaldata for pro-EU campaign group Best for Britain. It was based on two YouGov polls that together surveyed more than 15,000 people.

In total, it concluded that 2.6 million Leave voters have switched their support to Remain, while 970,000 have moved the other way – a net gain for the pro-EU side of 1.6 million.

The majority for Leave in 2016 was around 1.3 million, meaning if all those who have now switched their allegiance had acted in accordance with their new view at the ballot box, Remain would have won the vote by a greater margin.

While interesting, there isn't a a tame Media outlet that can exploit this as propaganda is there?

All along that has been this countrys biggest problem
The Media is far from "Free", it's bought and paid for, and no one knows how much of that money comes from far away, from hostile sources, do they?
 

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