Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

I can only see this Tom
"The figures might be facts but whether they are or not, it's probably indicative of the diaspora of British people elsewhere in Europe:"

Nothing else (apart from the Forum is doing the Lambada again! )

 

[Woosh]

View attachment 26429 I have just read through a lengthy piece by Norman Finkelstein in which he describes the problem faced by Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour movement. To keep things simple, this infographic encapsulates his position on the wider issues so you can choose whether or not to read the fuller version in this link: chimera-british-semitism

It isn't the easiest of reads, indeed I can't remember ever having to refer to my dictionary so frequently in such a brief article. I get the impression that Mr Finkelstein, while a very clever chap and superlative wordsmith, just can't help showing off his talent in that area which probably elevates his work to the status of highbrow, excluding lots of plebs, like me.

Tom

I did read that piece, it's unnecessarily full of obscure words, so I much prefer your summary. I don't pay much attention to the anti-Corbyn campaign that's been front page in the right wing press for months. They found some mud and mud sticks so they milk it for all it's worth. However, it's not his alleged pro-palestinian view that makes him less electable than TM.
JC has been and still is for strikers, the homeless, the hungry, and the hopeless, the despised, the downtrodden, and the destitute.

why does that make him less electable?
My answer to you is that there are just not enough rich people to milk tax revenue, they'd flee the country if JC takes much more from them, then the burden of JC's future program extra expenditure will have to fall on ordinary taxpayers, those who work 40 hours a week for food and a roof for their family.

 

[oyster]

And this consequence of brexit:

NHS unprepared for no-deal Brexit, leaked letter warns
Letter highlights risk of drug shortages and spread of disease

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/21/nhs-leak-warns-of-brexit-drug-shortages-and-disease-risk

Perhaps it won't happen - but I certainly don't want it to even be an outside possibility.

 

[daveboy]

Poll shows more Remainers have changed their mind than Leavers.
The Remainers on here love to quote Polls. No doubt they will poo poo
this one.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20180820/281754155168757

 

[flecc]

Poll shows more Remainers have changed their mind than Leavers.
The Remainers on here love to quote Polls. No doubt they will poo poo
this one.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20180820/281754155168757

Stuff all the polls. Just give us the vote on the Brexit terms eventually reached and then we'll all know the truth.

That referendum I will accept, the last one I didn't due to its obvious serious flaws.
.

 

[daveboy]

Stuff all the polls. Just give us the vote on the Brexit terms eventually reached and then we'll all know the truth.

That referendum I will accept, the last one I didn't due to its obvious serious flaws.
.

That would be like trying to get a good deal on a new car when the salesman
knows you have to go home and ask the wife before making a decision.

 

[oldgroaner]

Poll shows more Remainers have changed their mind than Leavers.
The Remainers on here love to quote Polls. No doubt they will poo poo
this one.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20180820/281754155168757

Not at all, people seem unable to change their minds once made up, that requires accepting you've made a mistake, as to the remainers they have simply given up all hope as no alternate is available

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[Woosh]

Poll shows more Remainers have changed their mind than Leavers.
The Remainers on here love to quote Polls. No doubt they will poo poo
this one.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20180820/281754155168757

it's not quite straightforward.
Here you can read the field work report. The sample is quite small, but still pretty OK as polls go.

http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/SOS-website-post.pdf

I'm really bored by Brexit: agree: 59, disagree: 14
I have changed my mind: agree: 13, disagree: 62
It is in this subgroup of 25 people in the sample that the claim was made: 11 voted to leave, 15 voted to remain. Net score: 4 * 13% = 0.52%.

You can pick another question on page 19:
Brexit is an historic mistake and only now people are realising it:
agree: 44, disagree: 30. Net score: 14%.

It's clear that after removing the don't knows, the majority now thinks that the referendum was a mistake.

That's why I think you need to check the poll data before you conclude.

 

[Wicky]

Daredevil Brexiters in action...

 

[oyster]

That's why I think you need to check the poll data before you conclude.

We might have lots to discuss or argue about, but your points re this poll are good.

As an ardent remainer, I most certainly am utterly bored with the whole brexit thing.

Continues to appear that at least some people are going down the "well, we've almost left, no changing it now" route. With a positive option to change it, that could change. Or am I being too optimistic?

 

[oldgroaner]

That would be like trying to get a good deal on a new car when the salesman
knows you have to go home and ask the wife before making a decision.

Can you tell us why you are in Favour of Brexit? give us some reason for your thinking it's a wise move.
What are you expecting to gain from it?

 

[oldgroaner]

That would be like trying to get a good deal on a new car when the salesman
knows you have to go home and ask the wife before making a decision.

As usual?

 

[oldtom]

Polls are generally regarded as unreliable yet we have contributors here advocating this poll or that poll and it's become a game of top trumps.

My take on it is simple; let's have another 'Brexit' poll as soon as possible, so we may avoid crashing out of the EU as it seems wholly unlikely that any satisfactory deal is going to result from the alleged negotiations in which we have participated....or perhaps that should be 'attended'?

Like 'flecc', I would be happy with whatever result a further referendum throws up, provided that only factual statements from spokespersons are permitted and total proscription is enforced in regard to aspirational claims.

Tom

 

[oyster]

Can you tell us why you are in Favour of Brexit?

That really is a question that has rarely been answered other than by saying things about the clutches of the EU.

 

[daveboy]

Can you tell us why you are in Favour of Brexit? give us some reason for your thinking it's a wise move.
What are you expecting to gain from it?

1. The Eu is corrupt (so is this government but we get to vote them out)
2. I don't like the EU's attitude towards us (even before the vote)
3.The EU want an EU army (they denied this but have now admitted it)
4.Who will they let in in the future ? Turkey ? I know of at least 4 women
who have married Turkish men only for them to leave as soon as they
got the right to stay.(what if they all had the right to stay)
5. I don't like the Bullying attitude of the remainers who think they are right
and can change people's minds by shouting them down.Especially on here.
Calling people F$$kwits Brexidiots and worst of all cowards is not on and
anybody that uses such remarks should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[flecc]

1. The Eu is corrupt (so is this government but we get to vote them out)
2. I don't like the EU's attitude towards us (even before the vote)
3.The EU want an EU army (they denied this but have now admitted it)
4.Who will they let in in the future ? Turkey ? I know of at least 4 women
who have married Turkish men only for them to leave as soon as they
got the right to stay.(what if they all had the right to stay)
5. I don't like the Bullying attitude of the remainers who think they are right
and can change people's minds by shouting them down.Especially on here.
Calling people F$$kwits Brexidiots and worst of all cowards is not on and
anybody that uses such remarks should be ashamed of themselves.

None of which justifies wrecking the UK economy by leaving the EU.

It seems to be all about your feelings and hearsay.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

1. The Eu is corrupt (so is this government but we get to vote them out)
2. I don't like the EU's attitude towards us (even before the vote)
3.The EU want an EU army (they denied this but have now admitted it)
4.Who will they let in in the future ? Turkey ? I know of at least 4 women
who have married Turkish men only for them to leave as soon as they
got the right to stay.(what if they all had the right to stay)
5. I don't like the Bullying attitude of the remainers who think they are right
and can change people's minds by shouting them down.Especially on here.
Calling people F$$kwits Brexidiots and worst of all cowards is not on and
anybody that uses such remarks should be ashamed of themselves.

Lets take them one by one
1 You don't like the EU's is corrupt... OK quote exactly how and when and how this affected you.
2: I don't like the EU's attitude towards us (even before the vote)
Quote examples, such as ? and is any of it true?
3: The EU want an Army, (and how exactly does leaving the EU stop them doing that?) as a member we could have vetoed the idea.
4You you realise that the last lot of nations admitted to the EU did so because our Government under John Major pushed for them to be admitted? it was our idea!
Turkey being admitted? are you aware that Boris Johnson did this after the referendum?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/27/boris-johnson-says-britain-will-now-help-turkey-join-eu-despite/
"
Boris Johnson says Britain will now help Turkey join EU despite using prospect to help win referendum"
5: 5. I don't like the Bullying attitude of the remainers who think they are right
and can change people's minds by shouting them down.Especially on here.
Calling people F$$kwits Brexidiots and worst of all cowards is not on and
anybody that uses such remarks should be ashamed of themselves.

First of all it isn't bullying to point out the flaws in the Brexit arguments, OK name calling is not fair, but lets look at the points you raised.

None of them answered the question I asked, did they?
What are you hoping to gain from it?

The EU's not going to be any less corrupt
The EU will get the Army it wants
Turkey won't be joining the EU and was never likely to
Remainer's attitudes didn't exist before the referendum so didn't affect your vote, did they?

I put it to you that you voted to leave the EU because you had read and heard a lot of criticisms of the EU that you voted in protest against.
What have you got at the end of it?
Name something of real value
Even the leave campaign are not promising better times are they?
You need to ask
What's in Brexit for Me? so far the result is a big Nothing.

 

[oldgroaner]

1. The Eu is corrupt (so is this government but we get to vote them out)
2. I don't like the EU's attitude towards us (even before the vote)
3.The EU want an EU army (they denied this but have now admitted it)
4.Who will they let in in the future ? Turkey ? I know of at least 4 women
who have married Turkish men only for them to leave as soon as they
got the right to stay.(what if they all had the right to stay)
5. I don't like the Bullying attitude of the remainers who think they are right
and can change people's minds by shouting them down.Especially on here.
Calling people F$$kwits Brexidiots and worst of all cowards is not on and
anybody that uses such remarks should be ashamed of themselves.

Welcome back, Zlatan.....

 

[oyster]

3.The EU want an EU army (they denied this but have now admitted it)

That is a statement not an explantation as to why an EU army is something you disagree with.

I can see some possible advantages and some possible disadvantages of having such an army, many of which are highly contingent on what is actually meant by an EU army.

 

[daveboy]

Welcome back, Zlatan.....

Proves my point.