Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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This infographic from 'A Nation Divided' tells me all I need to know about the corruption extant among mainstream media and tory government:
although I am not for the IHRA's definition of AS, I still think it is totally wrong to make sweeping comparison of Israel with Hitler's Germany. The comparisons are grossly unfair. I voted sometimes for Labour and don't dislike JC but I can't bring myself to vote for JC next time because of his ambiguity on this and other subjects.
 
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oldtom

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although I am not for the IHRA's definition of AS, I still think it is totally wrong to make sweeping comparison of Israel with Hitler's Germany. The comparisons are grossly unfair. I voted sometimes for Labour and don't dislike JC but I can't bring myself to vote for JC next time because of his ambiguity on this and other subjects.
Really! I'm so glad I refrained from making any such comparison.

Tom
 
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flecc

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although I am not for the IHRA's definition of AS, I still think it is totally wrong to make sweeping comparison of Israel with Hitler's Germany. The comparisons are grossly unfair. I voted sometimes for Labour and don't dislike JC but I can't bring myself to vote for JC next time because of his ambiguity on this and other subjects.
Surely the greatest ambiguity is the breadth of the definition that Jewish and Israeli bodies give to the description anti-semitic.

It's clearly designed to suppress all criticism of Israeli behaviour, masking what amounts to ethnic cleansing of Palestinian identity.

I share JC's reluctance to agree to these extreme definitions of anti-semitism, in my case rejecting them outright as corruptly Zionist.
.
 

Woosh

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Surely the greatest ambiguity is the breadth of the definition that Jewish and Israeli bodies give to the description anti-semitic.
that's why I am not for the IHRA's definition of AS.
Nevertheless, JC seems to want to accommodate those who liken Israel with Nazi's Germany.
Israel is nothing like that.
 
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flecc

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that's why I am not for the IHRA's definition of AS.
Nevertheless, JC seems to want to accommodate those who liken Israel with Nazi's Germany.
Israel is nothing like that.
OTT behaviour provokes OTT responses.

The solution is in Israeli hands, change the totally unacceptable behaviours and the unacceptable responses won't be provoked.

JC doesn't express extreme views on this subject, but he's unwilling to criticise those who go too far, since criticising them completely nullifies the legitimacy contained within their complaint.
.
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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The European Union
Is there any truth in the following? I know many of the product manufacturing bases have moved whilst we have been EU members, so how can people say that leaving will cost jobs? (All of below is a copy & paste from someone else words).

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
GKN. A great British business founded in 1759 with an ironworks foundry in South Wales. Recently acquired by assett stripper Melrose who are already planning to sell one of its most important divisions which may take its tech and know how to China.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
1. Companies are for the most part controlled by share holders not by governments (there are exceptions and the state can be a share holder in strategic companies)
2. Local government applies for EU grants to attract companies to their city in order to secure jobs for local people - companies can apply for EU research and development grants directly to the EU
3. EU bureaucracy is involved in running the EU institutions, local bureaucracy is involved with you running your business
 

tillson

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.. you are simply confusing cause and effect. The EU never directed any of those companies to up sticks and go to other places in Europe. That was the avarice of the stockholders and their boards of directors. What the EU did and do is make it more attractive for those companies,so inclined, to remain inside Europe, rather than setting up in Malaysia.
While you are on the topic, identify the "petty" rules which prevented companies setting up in the disadvantaged area of say Wales?.
If you had read my post properly and thoroughly, you would have identified that the words were in fact someone else’s and I was asking the question, is there any truth within the words. For that reason, I can’t identify the petty rules. That is a third person’s perception, so you will need to ask them.

Taking your words and applying Dr Jambanathan’s policy of boiling all the..... (you know the rest). Companies have shifted from the U.K. to areas of the EU where they can exploit the vulnerability of Eastern Europeans and profiteer off the back of their low wages and lack of industrial rights. The EU had greased the wheels with cash to enable this to take place. About right?
 
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flecc

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Companies have shifted from the U.K. to areas of the EU where they can exploit the vulnerability of Eastern Europeans and profiteer off the back of their low wages and lack of industrial rights. The EU had greased the wheels with cash to enable this to take place. About right?
Partially right historically, the EU trying to improve the lot of poorer nations. But many of those places are no longer very cheap labour locations. The economic benefits of the introduced manufacturing has greatly improved their economies and for that reason, many who came here for a better life have returned to those countries when they get gainful employments and higher living standards now.

In other words the EU tactic was successful and the end result good on all counts.

We have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that we are an island on the fringe of Europe and therefore not ideally placed as a business location for todays multi-national companies. Two things have alleviated that, the Channel Tunnel and our EU membership and we'd be daft to lose either, inevitably at a cost to our economy.

We need to "do a Germany", stay in the EU for its benefits, upgrade our links into mainland Europe and develop our trade outside of the EU as other members have successfully done.
.
 

oyster

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Dexeu discussing cancelling police leave for two months in case of ‘no deal’ Brexit backlash

All police leave could be cancelled in the two months after Brexit



All police leave could be cancelled in the two months after Brexit. Photo: Getty.

i Team 21 hours Friday August 3rd 2018


By Pascale Hughes and Nigel Morris
Plans to ask police chiefs to cancel officers’ leave in the two months after Brexit have been discussed in Whitehall as the government readies itself for the worst case scenario of social unrest caused by a No Deal.


i understands that officials at the Department of Exiting the European Union (Dexeu) are contemplating the move as they prepare to issue guidance to individuals and businesses over how they should prepare for a chaotic British exit from the EU next March.


One MP protested last night that the police should be fighting crime rather than coping with a “no-deal shambles”.


While Brexiteers will dismiss the plan as scare-mongering, it comes after a raft of recent warnings of the consequence of a no-deal Brexit.


These include the government stockpiling food to cope with food shortages, and a weekend report – later denied by Downing Street – that the army was on standby to cope with disorder.


Preparing for civil unrest


Food shortages could happen because Britain is on a just-in-time import basis which could be scuppered by custom delays.


Reports from a series of Freedom of Information requests this week also showed that many local authorities are preparing for civil unrest and while impact reports obtained by Sky from Kent County Council found it was preparing for 13 miles of the M20 near Dover to be a lorry park until at least 2023.


And rest of article here:

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/holiday-ban-for-police-to-ensure-safe-brexit/

Why do I keep hearing snippets of the Clockwork Orange soundtrack as I contemplate the possible events surrounding brexit?

Why do I find it impossible to stop repeating to myself: "Two months? Nowhere near long enough. Two years? More likely. A permanent shift which will affect non-brexit related policing forever? Yes - that is definitely getting there.
 
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oldgroaner

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that's why I am not for the IHRA's definition of AS.
Nevertheless, JC seems to want to accommodate those who liken Israel with Nazi's Germany.
Israel is nothing like that.
I don't like people taking it on themselves to tell me what to think and what is Taboo,especially the people who failing to apply a high humanitarian example in their own territories

If the Jews don't like people being negative towards them, they should be tidying up their act in the territories they occupy and drawing less criticism.

Playing the victim card is no excuse for making victims of others
 

Danidl

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If you had read my post properly and thoroughly, you would have identified that the words were in fact someone else’s and I was asking the question, is there any truth within the words. For that reason, I can’t identify the petty rules. That is a third person’s perception, so you will need to ask them.

Taking your words and applying Dr Jambanathan’s policy of boiling all the..... (you know the rest). Companies have shifted from the U.K. to areas of the EU where they can exploit the vulnerability of Eastern Europeans and profiteer off the back of their low wages and lack of industrial rights. The EU had greased the wheels with cash to enable this to take place. About right?
Excluding the comment about lack of industrial rights and accepting that there are plenty of people prepared to work for lower wages in economies where the costs of buying property is lower, then yes about right. The EU role is facilitating upskilling these workforces by investing in their infrastructure so that eventually they also have the same standards as elsewhere ..it has a name and a title social cohesion
 

Woosh

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Playing the victim card is no excuse for making victims of others
I don't think it's playing the victim card. It's about minimum standard. You can insult some people some of the time kind of things.
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Dexeu discussing cancelling police leave for two months in case of ‘no deal’ Brexit backlash

All police leave could be cancelled in the two months after Brexit



All police leave could be cancelled in the two months after Brexit. Photo: Getty.

i Team 21 hours Friday August 3rd 2018


By Pascale Hughes and Nigel Morris
Plans to ask police chiefs to cancel officers’ leave in the two months after Brexit have been discussed in Whitehall as the government readies itself for the worst case scenario of social unrest caused by a No Deal.


i understands that officials at the Department of Exiting the European Union (Dexeu) are contemplating the move as they prepare to issue guidance to individuals and businesses over how they should prepare for a chaotic British exit from the EU next March.


One MP protested last night that the police should be fighting crime rather than coping with a “no-deal shambles”.


While Brexiteers will dismiss the plan as scare-mongering, it comes after a raft of recent warnings of the consequence of a no-deal Brexit.


These include the government stockpiling food to cope with food shortages, and a weekend report – later denied by Downing Street – that the army was on standby to cope with disorder.


Preparing for civil unrest


Food shortages could happen because Britain is on a just-in-time import basis which could be scuppered by custom delays.


Reports from a series of Freedom of Information requests this week also showed that many local authorities are preparing for civil unrest and while impact reports obtained by Sky from Kent County Council found it was preparing for 13 miles of the M20 near Dover to be a lorry park until at least 2023.


And rest of article here:

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/holiday-ban-for-police-to-ensure-safe-brexit/

Why do I keep hearing snippets of the Clockwork Orange soundtrack as I contemplate the possible events surrounding brexit?

Why do I find it impossible to stop repeating to myself: "Two months? Nowhere near long enough. Two years? More likely. A permanent shift which will affect non-brexit related policing forever? Yes - that is definitely getting there.
They would be better advised to check with Boris if his buddy has any more cheapo Water Cannons
 
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oldgroaner

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I don't think it's playing the victim card. It's about minimum standard. You can insult some people some of the time kind of things.
All a convenient smokescreen just when needed as Brexit goes Belly up.
Keeps the Public mind off the debacle in progress.
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Excluding the comment about lack of industrial rights and accepting that there are plenty of people prepared to work for lower wages in economies where the costs of buying property is lower, then yes about right. The EU role is facilitating upskilling these workforces by investing in their infrastructure so that eventually they also have the same standards as elsewhere ..it has a name and a title social cohesion
Social Cohesion? we can't be doing with any of that, why do you think they are discussing Police Leave being cancelled after Brexit?
Social Cohesion indeed! ... perish the thought! :p
 
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Danidl

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Sep 29, 2016
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Partially right historically, the EU trying to improve the lot of poorer nations. But many of those places are no longer very cheap labour locations. The economic benefits of the introduced manufacturing has greatly improved their economies and for that reason, many who came here for a better life have returned to those countries when they get gainful employments and higher living standards now.

In other words the EU tactic was successful and the end result good on all counts.

We have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that we are an island on the fringe of Europe and therefore not ideally placed as a business location for todays multi-national companies. Two things have alleviated that, the Channel Tunnel and our EU membership and we'd be daft to lose either, inevitably at a cost to our economy.

We need to "do a Germany", stay in the EU for its benefits, upgrade our links into mainland Europe and develop our trade outside of the EU as other members have successfully done.
.
Without flag waving etc.. the Eurovision song and dance competition is very much a pointer, in the early days the UK and Ireland did very well, but as the axis of Europe has moved east with the reunification of Germany, our successes have dwindled, it is not just down to block voting but instead being more peripheral..
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Without flag waving etc.. the Eurovision song and dance competition is very much a pointer, in the early days the UK and Ireland did very well, but as the axis of Europe has moved east with the reunification of Germany, our successes have dwindled, it is not just down to block voting but instead being more peripheral..
Thinks that's called biased. Geography would play no part if music were judged on merit. Europe is just a tad jealous over British Isles almost monopoly on decent music. OK, Sweden gave us ABBA... thanks. Oh, and a Belgium bloke invented Saxophone. Mr Sax I think. Now, porn, that's a different matter. Holland, Belgium, Germany are way ahead.(So I, ve been told)
 
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Woosh

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All a convenient smokescreen just when needed as Brexit goes Belly up.
Keeps the Public mind off the debacle in progress.
Smokescreen? No, it's a small issue for most but I can see why it's important to about 1% of the population, I have some sympathy because sometime I feel being part of a minority myself.
Labour is going to deal with it in September, JC will have to come off the fence soon enough. There is no rush.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
JC seems to want to accommodate those who liken Israel with Nazi's Germany.
Israel is nothing like that.
There are none so blind as those who will not see! The Jews of Israel have turned into the Nazis of the 1930s and '40s and are now committing atrocities against an oppressed people. What part of that have you failed to notice?

Tom
 
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