Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

let's take an example.
Our man tag a door for a drone to blow up.
The tag sends its coordinates to the drone. Both drone and tag do not need maps, they use the same reference latitude, longitude, altitude.
The new satellites will help maps to be more accurate.

But that's assuming zero error in the actual coordinates. The construction of the coordinate itself involves referencing to some prearranged datum.
Try it yourself. Use a machine to mark a point. Put that coordinate in another machine. Use both to find the point. The original will go straight there, the unit you entered the coordinates into may not.(This is the 9m radius Garmin talk about)
It's the difference between relative accuracy and datum accuracy.
If it were not for this I could navigate straight into any harbour anywhere just on GPS. I can, only if previously visited and believe it or not with the self same unit.
I can't explain the reasoning for this , perhaps Garmin could, but I, ve tried it just a few times.
What I am suggesting is the relative accuracy of the units is so good the error we do see must be linked to the underlying system.
(BTW I, m not suggesting your system would not work but doubt whether Garmin would guarantee it 100%. The front door would need extremely accurate, a little out and it's trying to land on carpet.
I think any such system will always require visual referencing as will cars. ( or some other kind of sensor)
GPS to find the house then a beacon in garden for landing.

 

[Danidl]

Good points. Apart from the accuracy issue and number of satellites. The best accuracy is achieved with a broad spread of satellites, from directly overhead to the horizon. It's both the triangulation effect and finding best satellite signal for greatest Doppler effect. (ie going across satellite will have zero Doppler, going directly away or towards maximum)
First thing unit does is calculate its speed, which it needs for any further calculation.

I am not sure that the process is as simple as Doppler . My understanding is that each satellite , whose actual position at any instant is very accurately known, sends a time coded signal identifying its location . The time difference between any two signals defines a ring of possible locations on the earth's surface. If a third time signal from a thirdcsatellite is added it uniquely identifies two locations and four uniquely one location. If additional signals are pick up and often up to 8 or 9 then a least squares error reduction calculation is carried out . The GPS reciever is basically a bank of 24 radio recievers and a clever trigonometric calculator.
The time tof flight taken for the signal to be picked up, is a measure of the position of the reciever, and while nominally the speed of light, will be affected by humidity in the atmosphere, and this creates the error in position

 

[oldgroaner]

You mix up the EU and Europe all the time and you call me confused.

Not so, you think nothing has changed, but with Brexit is has.
Pulling out of the EU places us back in the situation we were in before both World wars, where the posssibility of local tensions can lead to war, and a great harbinger of that is that we are being excluded from Galileo's higher capabilities as the EU take account of our unreliablility when it comes to making pointless wars.
Brexit will make us both a competitor and even conceivably, an enemy of either the EU or one nation inside it.
That was thing the EU was intended to prevent , the main reason for forming it.
If you imagine we will cosy up to the EU and have our cake and eat it, and all get along swimmingly outside of it, you are being very optimistic indeed.

On our own the possibility of conflict becomes a faint but nevertheless possible outcome.
It only takes some idiotic rabble rousing politician to come along and inflame the public about injustice in the old fashioned way

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Telegraph a little comedy to keep the gullible happy
"
Exclusive£4bn NHS boost to be funded by Brexit dividend, borrowing and income tax.

Somehow I think the "Brexit Dividend " in reality consists of the other two items, borrowing and Income tax (not payable if you have an offshore bank account of course)

 

[Zlatan]

I am not sure that the process is as simple as Doppler . My understanding is that each satellite , whose actual position at any instant is very accurately known, sends a time coded signal identifying its location . The time difference between any two signals defines a ring of possible locations on the earth's surface. If a third time signal from a thirdcsatellite is added it uniquely identifies two locations and four uniquely one location. If additional signals are pick up and often up to 8 or 9 then a least squares error reduction calculation is carried out . The GPS reciever is basically a bank of 24 radio recievers and a clever trigonometric calculator.
The time tof flight taken for the signal to be picked up, is a measure of the position of the reciever, and while nominally the speed of light, will be affected by humidity in the atmosphere, and this creates the error in position

Yes, that's exactly the process along with examination of incoming frequency of time carrier signal.
All satellites are geo stationary so as unit picks each one up it calculates distance from it and when enough have been found gives a circle of overlapping signals, in which it knows unit is in. A position in space. To give us that position it must approximate to our lines of lat/long and then give an elevation.
Not sure protocols are available for units to send raw (accurate) time data. It has to display its position in a language we understand....hence the problem.
My only thoughts are that I can't see how Galileo can be so much more accurate when limiting factors are not the units but the system inherent in our navigation system.But, I know nothing about Galileo...

 

[Woosh]

Not sure protocols are available for units to send raw (accurate) time data. It has to display its position in a language we understand

that's surely the job for the programmers. What would an ordinary person do with a set of time codes?

if you are interested in geodetic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System

 

[Zlatan]

that's surely the job for the programmers. What would an ordinary person do with a set of time codes?

if you are interested in geodetic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System

Totally agree, like I said earlier the system is already fantastic. I think there was a feeling that some thought it was another bad consequence of Brexit. Not using Galileo will be totally inconsequential for 99.9% of us. I really can't see any applications where real benefit could be achieved for reasons I, ve mentioned.
If it were a step forward the current system would soon be modified accordingly. (It's undergoing mods at moment)
I, m not that interested in how, why system works but do use system almost on a daily basis. (on top of car use)
Used it yesterday for speed data windsurfing. This after noon system will be controlling speed of boat through slalom course. It works perfect. Can't fault it.We used to put little magnets on bouys and a sensor in bow of boat. Worked OK but not a patch on current system. If it ain't bust... don't fix it.

 

[Woosh]

I really can't see any applications where real benefit could be achieved for reasons I, ve mentioned.

let's say you work on an active anti-collision system. Each vehicule in the system would be fitted with a transponder. Each will report its GPS coordinate (in WGS format) when interrogated. That would make your programmer's life a lot easier wouldn't it?

 

[ianboydsnr]

Not so, you think nothing has changed, but with Brexit is has.
Pulling out of the EU places us back in the situation we were in before both World wars, where the posssibility of local tensions can lead to war, and a great harbinger of that is that we are being excluded from Galileo's higher capabilities as the EU take account of our unreliablility when it comes to making pointless wars.
Brexit will make us both a competitor and even conceivably, an enemy of either the EU or one nation inside it.
That was thing the EU was intended to prevent , the main reason for forming it.
If you imagine we will cosy up to the EU and have our cake and eat it, and all get along swimmingly outside of it, you are being very optimistic indeed.

On our own the possibility of conflict becomes a faint but nevertheless possible outcome.
It only takes some idiotic rabble rousing politician to come along and inflame the public about injustice in the old fashioned way

What gibberish you talk, both world wars happened because of tensions in the main part of Europe, with the UK being in support of another country being annexed, by a more powerful European country,

We backed other countries in Europe both times, and have been backing those countries since the Second World War, the Cold War, so much for the UK being unreliable, if excluding us from Galileo, excludes us from doing that a third time, how is that to the benefit of Europe, or any country in Europe,
Enemy of Europe, your having a laugh, are you saying that the countries in the EU don’t want our troops in the states bordering Russia, I am still waiting for the announcement from those states, you don’t have enemy troops in you country, it’s called an invasion if you do,

I think it’s a mistake to leave, but let’s not get carried away with things, it only takes a rabble rousing politician from either side to believe the sort of gibberish you write, using terms like enemy and unreliable to further their own aims,

If the EU was formed to bring continued peace to Europe, then surely its the EU’s duty to work with the UK to continue that mission, and make the best of things, to do otherwise is a dereliction of that duty, and risks the safety of Europe,
Whilst I am a remainer, that doesn’t mean that I am not British and proud of my country, but I refuse to fall for the, everything the EU does is correct and for the benefit of Europe, or that we are unreliable or an enemy, that seems to me to be playground talk, nor do I think leaving is going well, it’s not, and it will probably get worse.

 

[oldtom]

That matters not a lot, when the UK spends our money on building its own, or partners with some other despot state to build its own, like Saudi, or India, or Australia, not that those are despot states,

And it will end up as much of a white elephant as the EU one will become.

As you claimed you could not ascertain any connection between what you posted and your conclusion to it, I looked back again at your amazing post where you described 'some other despot states'........'like Saudi, or India, or Australia'........before trying to ameliorate your disparaging comment by then stating, 'not that those are despot states'.

You then went on to assert that, 'it will end up as much of a white elephant as the EU one will become.'

Again, I take from that, that there is predisposition on your part that the EU one is doomed to failure, regardless.......or have I missed something?

This thread is entitled, 'Brexit, for once some facts.' but continual unfounded claims by posters, based on pure speculation and personal prejudice bring nothing useful to the discussion.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

If the EU was formed to bring continued peace to Europe, then surely its the EU’s duty to work with the UK to continue that mission, and make the best of things, to do otherwise is a dereliction of that duty, and risks the safety of Europe,

Are you serious? We are not being expelled. The UK government has served notice upon the EU of its intention to secede from the union. Given that, there is no responsibility on the EU; the continued peace in Europe may possibly be considered to be at risk as a result of the UK's withdrawal.

You are wrong to attempt to apportion any blame on the EU when most intelligent observers can see that it is incumbent upon the UK to remain in the union and play its part in ensuring Europe remains at peace as we go forward into a globally uncertain future.

Tom

 

[ianboydsnr]

As you claimed you could not ascertain any connection between what you posted and your conclusion to it, I looked back again at your amazing post where you described 'some other despot states'........'like Saudi, or India, or Australia'........before trying to ameliorate your disparaging comment by then stating, 'not that those are despot states'.

You then went on to assert that, 'it will end up as much of a white elephant as the EU one will become.'

Again, I take from that, that there is predisposition on your part that the EU one is doomed to failure, regardless.......or have I missed something?

This thread is entitled, 'Brexit, for once some facts.' but continual unfounded claims by posters, based on pure speculation and personal prejudice bring nothing useful to the discussion.

Tom

What have you brought to the discussion, claims of racisim, without any foundation, I am still waiting for your facts on that,

And yes you are missing something, your missing reality,

The Uk can partner in building a global position system, with any country despot or not, but I believe it will be a white elephant,

The EU can exclude the UK from its Global Positioning System, but to do so I believe it makes it a white elephant,

That’s not a fact that is an opinion, my opinion, your welcome to disagree

And you said in your post that there is a predisposition on my part that EU fails, you never wrote that the EU one fails,

I find it odd that someone who speculates and uses personal prejudices, then complains about others, ergo the borderline racisim comment you made.

 

[ianboydsnr]

I sense a predisposition on your part that somehow the EU is destined to fail. Perhaps you have knowledge denied to the rest of us, maybe you're a clairvoyant!

Tom

See clearly you said the EU is destined to fail, not the EU one.

 

[Woosh]

The EU can exclude the UK from its Global Positioning System, but to do so I believe it makes it a white elephant,

agreed.

 

[Zlatan]

let's say you work on an active anti-collision system. Each vehicule in the system would be fitted with a transponder. Each will report its GPS coordinate (in WGS format) when interrogated. That would make your programmer's life a lot easier wouldn't it?

Only if underlying system (not the GPS but the method of pinpointing a reference ie lat/long or polar etc were inherently accurate enough to do so.
The problem is not the accuracy of GPS it the grid system etc the GPS must coordinate too. I, m no theorist Woosh but do the experiment I mentioned. No matter how you enter the position it is never as accurate as the unit finding a position it has been to. But the units do not communicate with each other, the only review incoming signals. Perhaps next gen will do so but that will not be a benefit of Galileo, more a general improvement in GPS units.

 

[oldgroaner]

What gibberish you talk, both world wars happened because of tensions in the main part of Europe, with the UK being in support of another country being annexed, by a more powerful European country,

We backed other countries in Europe both times, and have been backing those countries since the Second World War, the Cold War, so much for the UK being unreliable, if excluding us from Galileo, excludes us from doing that a third time, how is that to the benefit of Europe, or any country in Europe,
Enemy of Europe, your having a laugh, are you saying that the countries in the EU don’t want our troops in the states bordering Russia, I am still waiting for the announcement from those states, you don’t have enemy troops in you country, it’s called an invasion if you do,

I think it’s a mistake to leave, but let’s not get carried away with things, it only takes a rabble rousing politician from either side to believe the sort of gibberish you write, using terms like enemy and unreliable to further their own aims,

If the EU was formed to bring continued peace to Europe, then surely its the EU’s duty to work with the UK to continue that mission, and make the best of things, to do otherwise is a dereliction of that duty, and risks the safety of Europe,
Whilst I am a remainer, that doesn’t mean that I am not British and proud of my country, but I refuse to fall for the, everything the EU does is correct and for the benefit of Europe, or that we are unreliable or an enemy, that seems to me to be playground talk, nor do I think leaving is going well, it’s not, and it will probably get worse.

An interesting point of view not supported by history, and you contradicted your own argument by admitting we had been at war with other European nations, and let's face it we wage aggressive wars even to this day.
They would be mad to ignore either of those facts, and not to regard us as an unreliable ally at best and possible adversary at worst.
To imagine we won't plan on the basis of possibly being in conflict with the EU after brexit is burying your head in the sand, and undoubtedly they have already done the same.
As to being "proud of being British" what's special about where you were accidently born? And a nation with a lamentable record at that?

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[ianboydsnr]

Are you serious? We are not being expelled. The UK government has served notice upon the EU of its intention to secede from the union. Given that, there is no responsibility on the EU; the continued peace in Europe may possibly be considered to be at risk as a result of the UK's withdrawal.

You are wrong to attempt to apportion any blame on the EU when most intelligent observers can see that it is incumbent upon the UK to remain in the union and play its part in ensuring Europe remains at peace as we go forward into a globally uncertain future.

Tom

I thought the EU had a responsibility to promote peace in Europe, surely that is why it was formed, what was the point of it otherwise, and it’s still it’s job, tnerefor any agreements should bear that in mind.

 

[Woosh]

nly if underlying system (not the GPS but the method of pinpointing a reference ie lat/long or polar etc were inherently accurate enough to do so.

you didn't follow up the Geodetic link I gave you, did you?
The reference system is better explained in the wiki than I ever could.
The earth's center and its geoid are accurate to 4 decimal places in the SI. The WGS coordinate system is updated regularly every few years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System

mispelt, geoid not geode.

 

[ianboydsnr]

An interesting point of view not supported by history, and you contradicted your own argument by admitting we had been at war with other European nations, and let's face it we wage aggressive wars even to this day.
They would be mad to ignore either of those facts, and not to regard us as an unreliable ally at best and possible adversary at worst.
To imagine we won't plan on the basis of possibly being in conflict with the EU after brexit is burying your head in the sand, and undoubtedly they have already done the same.
As to being "proud of being British" what's special about where you were accidently born? And a nation with a lamentable record at that?

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

So you agree that the EU should work with the UK to continue the peace in Europe, Or not?
It’s not head in sand, it’s focusing on what’s important, if all there is is between the EU and the UK, is petulance and back biting and claims of untrustworthy and enemy, that doesn’t seem in my eyes to be a good basis for the continuing security of Europe, you know, what the EU was formed for,

I wasnt accidentally born here, my ancestors are from here, my family live here, it’s not perfect, but there’s much worse places to be born, and my nation has a great record,
If you only see negative, then negative you will be.

I am also a proud European, I don’t see them mutually exclusive, in fact I find it odd that someone soproud to be European can have difficulty in understanding someone being a proud Scot, or welsh or German, or any country for that matter, including England.

 

[Zlatan]

you didn't follow up the Geodetic link I gave you, did you?
The reference system is better explained in the wiki than I ever could.
The earth's center and its geoid are accurate to 4 decimal places in the SI. The WGS coordinate system is updated regularly every few years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System

mispelt, geoid not geode.

OK Woosh. I give in. We need Galileo.
BTW I did read the link, you have neither tried my experiment or offered an explanation.
You are missing the point.