Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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Not really OG. The remain supporter's posts have a tendency to posses a rather unpleasant common thread. That is that the leave side are too stupid to understand what they have voted for. That is rather demeaning in itself, but the introduction of the racist element plunges to new depths. My comment was merely intended to point out that this racism accusation is beneath contempt.
No Tillson the remain argument was that the leave voters were mislead, which they have interpreted as meaning they are stupid, preferring not to accept that they were in fact wrong, and hiding the fact publicly by this show of indignation.
I repeat, not stupid just mislead, though it might be a case to argue that sticking to that attitude doesn't exactly prove anything to disprove their own opinion of themselves does it?
How they regard themselves is entirely their own affair.
 
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derf

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And what might that be?
Well,since you ask - and to use your words - the final two paragraphs sounds a lot like the kind of tantrum a peevish brat would have. Grow up and argue like an adult. Oh yes,and while I'm at it,accept that you live in a shared world. And stop thinking a 2% majority equals a quorum. Got it?
 
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oldtom

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I think perhaps I ought to have whatever you are drinking Flud as it certainly is revealing a creative side to your imagination I ever knew you had!

Nice try to play the "Race card" by the way (not)
OG, you have just put into words exactly my thoughts after reading Flud's post @ #3011 so I shan't add to the man's, (making an assumption as he tends to do), misery.

I have read and re-read what I posted and cannot for the life of me even begin to imagine how Flud could interpret my words in such a way as to suggest I am racist but I have met with such rank stupidity previously, when in the company of those under the affluence of incohol.

As Flud does not know me, he presumably imagines I am white, suggesting I may be the one who is racist. I have a difficulty with that as he went on to say, ' I,m black..and have never had any racial problems in UK..ever. .quite the reverse.' In my humble opinion, that would be a real novelty for a black person in the UK - I'd be interested to know indeed what percentage of black people or white people of foreign extraction, resident in the UK could honestly come out with that statement.

Has Flud ever met any, for example, Poles, Russians, Indians, Chinese, Irish or Scots, I wonder? Even if I were to believe his claim, which I don't, it's not difficult to find untold examples of racism suffered by these people. As one who campaigned for the 'Remain' camp before the referendum in a variety of locations, I can tell Flud that we were very well received and supported by the black and Asian communities. Many of those against our campaign were particularly abusive and had there been a police presence, quite a few arrests would have been made under the Public Order Act.

If you like a quiet life, I recommend avoiding campaigns like 'Remain' or any other democratic, decent movements which might incur the wrath of the 'Britain First' warriors and their associated racist, thug supporters who go under a variety of sham patriotic handles. All those who joined the 'Leave' movement knew perfectly well they were associating with some really nasty people who were predominately, if not entirely, of white ethnicity (if you could see past the tattoos and union flags) but were happy to go along with it, regardless.

Let's not forget that millions of British citizens believed the lies spouted by the fascist 'Brexit' campaign leaders that every intelligent person saw through including some of the most eminent people in spheres such as banking, economics, science, the arts, not to mention world leaders and philosophers.

If we are to believe some of the stories that have done the rounds, many of those 'Leave' voters would vote the other way if they were to have another chance. Well, frankly I no longer care; I say trigger Article 50 now and let happen whatever will happen. Being as most of our important industry, our rail network, our utilities and much of our capital city are now in foreign hands thanks to tory policies, we are no longer in control of our destiny. The EU provides many benefits and safety nets for all member states but on our own, we have to look after ourselves.

In years to come when, shall we say the Japanese for example, decide to pull the plug on British operations, how will we cope without ARM, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, not to mention all the feeder companies who supply whatever these firms require? With currency that won't buy very much of anyone else's and a diminished City of London financial centre, overtaken by Frankfurt, how will Johnson, Farage and all the other liars who misled the simpletons fix that?

We could probably start a war with some small country to divert the nation's attention from life's harsh reality and as long as we don't need aircraft carriers to provide air superiority at distance as they might still not be battle-ready, we could actually win, not lose too many of our service personnel in the process, then bask in the ignomy of our poverty. We could ask the French to help us out with a carrier or two......err, perhaps not!

Tom
 

tillson

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Well,since you ask - and to use your words - the final two paragraphs sounds a lot like the kind of tantrum a peevish brat would have. Grow up and argue like an adult. Oh yes,and while I'm at it,accept that you live in a shared world. And stop thinking a 2% majority equals a quorum. Got it?
Derv, you make no sense. You talk in a sort of code to which no one has the key.
 
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Mar 9, 2016
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So there we have it from Tom and OG, not only are leavers racist this one is drunk and a liar..what a pair of complete pilocks.

BTW, poll results I saw said 96% of all voters would vote same..like I said earlier try and make your own minds up rather than rely on made up statistics and polls.

Think there has been too much said on here. Time for a break.

Lets hope May can have more productive discussion than us silly old gits have managed..

Putting OG and Tom on ignore. Take care.

Ps.Its ok for Tom to call all leavers racist but point out his blatant prejudice and he,s all indignant. ..
 
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D8ve

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May should have commandeered The City of Lincoln Lancaster from The Battle of Britain Memorial Flight and flown to Berlin in that yesterday. What a splendid sight that would have made as she touched down on the Tarmac.
No way it gets there and back easy but they never stop on that run.
 
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mike killay

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Sad to see that the old lefties on this forum will simply not accept the reality ,of the referendum and have to manufacture all sort of spurious reasons that they lost.
Truly, they are extremely offensive and bullying towards leavers and will not accept democracy. That tells us a lot about them.
The country is now headed off in the direction that its people want.
Don't witter on about 48% voting remain
What percentage of them were frightened silly by Cameron's 'Project Fear?'
We have a bright future ahead of us, despite the doom mongering of some members.
 

derf

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Sad to see that the old lefties on this forum will simply not accept the reality ,of the referendum and have to manufacture all sort of spurious reasons that they lost.
Truly, they are extremely offensive and bullying towards leavers and will not accept democracy. That tells us a lot about them.
The country is now headed off in the direction that its people want.
Don't witter on about 48% voting remain
What percentage of them were frightened silly by Cameron's 'Project Fear?'
We have a bright future ahead of us, despite the doom mongering of some members.
In the 21st centuries interconnected world xenophobia is not a great paradigm to design ones future by. Have a look at what happens to erdogan's turkey in the next few years. The part of me that owns property in the UK wishes you were right about the bright future, selfishly. Sadly you're dead wrong. Look at the economic indicators. And flud,if you waited 6 to 12 months instead of selling you're French property now the pound and euro would have been at parity,and you'd get 20% more £, and the UK property market will have devalued.
 

Kudoscycles

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Sad to see that the old lefties on this forum will simply not accept the reality ,of the referendum and have to manufacture all sort of spurious reasons that they lost.
Truly, they are extremely offensive and bullying towards leavers and will not accept democracy. That tells us a lot about them.
The country is now headed off in the direction that its people want.
Don't witter on about 48% voting remain
What percentage of them were frightened silly by Cameron's 'Project Fear?'
We have a bright future ahead of us, despite the doom mongering of some members.
It isn't the left that are solely anti Brexit,it is pretty much across the political spectrum....Hollande in France is concerned about the French far right also wanting a referendum.
Most of the offensive remarks on this thread seem to be coming from frustrated Leavers who want us all to accept that we are leaving,they don't seem to accept that us remainers still have a view,after all nothing much has changed at the moment,we are all still EU citizens,what has changed is the uncertainty. I accept for political reasons that May has to currently bang the Brexit drum,but what form that Brexit will ultimately take may not be what Leavers intended,even now Rudd is saying that immigration will be 'sustainable proportions' rather than 'tens of thousands'.
Are you sure that the country is heading in the direction people want,because I don't think any of us know which direction we are headed and I include Hammond,May,Davis and Boris in that statement....they haven't yet got a clue in which direction they intend taking us,the EU,the Scots and the courts may be holding the compass and May will not be in the driving seat of where we are going.
I would like to view,even on the long term,the bright future which is ahead of us,perhaps someone could tell me where the light is coming from?
At the moment exports to the EU are good because of the weak £ v €,but that will change when current stocks have to be replaced from dollar sourced countries.
Cameron and Osborne with project fear just overdid it,they would have been better to tone it down and point out the losses and price rises that will soon be inevitable.....but Boris and Gove were downright liars in what they offered if we left,they have since retracted the viability of most of those offers.
I get a feeling that the deal we ultimately achieve will neither satisfy the Leavers or the Remainers,it will be soft Brexit that will cost us all dear,but will be just enough Brexit to satisfy the Leavers.
KudosDave
 
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Kudoscycles

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Andrew Niel,on This Week,currently in the US,made some interesting points about Trump and the referendum vote were protest votes against inequality of wealth and a punch on the nose of the establishment.
He suggested that Trump appealed to middle class American whites,he is clearly anti Moslem,Hispanic and Black,about as racist as it is possible to be,his supporters want 'America for Americans' and 'Making America Great Again'.
Andrew Niel suggested that the Leave vote similarly blamed immigrants from the EU keeping down living standards in the UK and the rhetoric from Boris in the campaign 'Making Britain Great Again' supported that.
Are both the rise of Trump and the Leave vote in frustration about a stagnation of living standards against a background of wealth inequality in both the US and the U.K.?
I wonder whether Trump and Brexit can achieve what the respective voters wish to achieve.?
KudosDave
 

Kudoscycles

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In the 21st centuries interconnected world xenophobia is not a great paradigm to design ones future by. Have a look at what happens to erdogan's turkey in the next few years. The part of me that owns property in the UK wishes you were right about the bright future, selfishly. Sadly you're dead wrong. Look at the economic indicators. And flud,if you waited 6 to 12 months instead of selling you're French property now the pound and euro would have been at parity,and you'd get 20% more £, and the UK property market will have devalued.
I doubt whether the Euro will maintain its current strength against the £ for long,there is the problem of Greece and the problems in Italy,Spain and Portugal will resurface at some point,which will put pressure on the value of the Euro. Ironically Brexit is hitting the £ more than strength of the Euro and is masking the Euro problems but there will be an event to reverse that,maybe the imminent problems of bankruptcy of Italian banks.
KudosDave
 
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RobF

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Sep 22, 2012
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I can't see how a 'soft' Brexit could work, not least because other EU states, particularly France, quite reasonably think we should either be properly in or properly out.

Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal have their own problems, and there seems some call in France for an in/out referendum.

Far from our Brexit not happening, it could be the start of a domino effect which will ultimately see the end of the EU.

It is, after all, only a treaty organisation of fairly recent invention.

It has no divine right to exist, and doesn't have the length of history underpinning it which most national borders and parliaments do.
 
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oldgroaner

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So there we have it from Tom and OG, not only are leavers racist this one is drunk and a liar..what a pair of complete pilocks.

BTW, poll results I saw said 96% of all voters would vote same..like I said earlier try and make your own minds up rather than rely on made up statistics and polls.

Think there has been too much said on here. Time for a break.

Lets hope May can have more productive discussion than us silly old gits have managed..

Putting OG and Tom on ignore. Take care.

Ps.Its ok for Tom to call all leavers racist but point out his blatant prejudice and he,s all indignant. ..
You really don't seem capable of staying on topic, and not wandering off into fantasy do you Flud? and you have indeed said too much,
Another Brexit using the ignore button eh? is this the second of the third time?
 
Mar 9, 2016
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Kudos . Good points well made.
However, yes as a,leaver I,ve resorted to insult,apologies,it was under duress. This whole debate would be far more constructive without certain posters..I,m leaving their bigotted views on ignore.
The whole nation has been misled since 1972. What started as a small step up from the common market has developed into the prime political force in Europe. The EU is now bribing ( or threatening withdrawal) of economic agreements with political aspirations. The whole premise is wrong. Slowly, since the 70,s our own political control has ebbed towards central Europe,diminshing both our own government control on both ecomic and political fronts. The referendum I took part in in the 70,s never mentioned that.
It boils down to does UK eventually want to be governed from Brussels ?
It was a stroke of brilliance not accepting euro when many at the time were saying the same said this time.

It is blatantly wrong the EU is pushing onto us political rules of any kind with economic sanctions. It sums the situation up. Look at their help of countries without our financial clout and think how we,d be getting treated if we had similar ecomoic power to Portugal.

Wars have been fought to keep ecomic agreements, it was primary motive for developing our Navy. Yet here we are thinking of having to keep them we hand back political control, which is exactly where we were going had we stayed.

Racism, xenophobia, economic doomsday , leavers being mis lead are all nonsense aimed at under mining leavers beliefs. Some buy into it. The better educated see it for what it is.Propoganda.
 
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You make some good points Flud, ones that I might not particularly agree with, but they are debatable at least.

However.... even the most intelligent, grounded leave voter has to agree this last bit isn't true.

No one is accusing you of being a xenophobe etc etc.

Racism, xenophobia, economic doomsday , leavers being mis lead are all nonsense aimed at under mining leavers beliefs. Some buy into it. The better educated see it for what it is.Propoganda.
There is a % of leave voters that voted for all sorts of things, that include racism, xenophobia etc etc. Up here in Huddersfield there is a campaign to save the local A&E hospital, thousands of people voted leave because they were promised more money for the NHS. Clearly lots of people who voted leave didn't know about the EU, or frankly care about it. They just wanted to make a point.. That point was in many cases, we're full, or we need to take back control, etc etc. Both those points are nonsense and not caused by or solved by the EU, even if they were even factually correct.
 

tillson

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May 29, 2008
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In the 21st centuries interconnected world xenophobia is not a great paradigm to design ones future by. Have a look at what happens to erdogan's turkey in the next few years. The part of me that owns property in the UK wishes you were right about the bright future, selfishly. Sadly you're dead wrong. Look at the economic indicators. And flud,if you waited 6 to 12 months instead of selling you're French property now the pound and euro would have been at parity,and you'd get 20% more £, and the UK property market will have devalued.
Except that in 6 to 12 months the failing basket case economies of Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal will be putting ever more pressure on the Euro as they bleed more money from the EU. This is a millstone dragging the EU and all the countries tethered to it to the bottom of the septic tank. We need to get on with process of severing this tether.

The pound will strengthen again, it isn't far off its median value today, and when the EU run out of sticking plasters to patch up the failing economies, I reckon we will see record highs. That's not so good for our exports though.
 
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Except that in 6 to 12 months the failing basket case economies of Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal will be putting ever more pressure on the Euro as they bleed more money from the EU. This is a millstone dragging the EU and all the countries tethered to it to the bottom of the septic tank. We need to get on with process of severing this tether.

The pound will strengthen again, it isn't far off its median value today, and when the EU run out of sticking plasters to patch up the failing economies, I reckon we will see record highs. That's not so good for our exports though.
We're not in the € zone, so this won't impact on us at all, selfishly it might actually benefit us in some ways?

So you're predicting a strong £, that will make our exports expensive, we'll also be outside the trading block who we export to most... so our exports will suffer again. And you see this being good for the UK ... how??
 

oldgroaner

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As usual Flud launches yet another attack, as if in some way he finds sticking to the topic beyond him.
And what has he to contribute to the debate?
A complete lack of understanding of just how much the public has been misled into believing all ills stem from the EU "imposing" it's will on us, and a pretence that we haven't known all along that the aim was to be a European state, when Churchill himself declared that was the ultimate aim.
More nonsense Flud, as usual.

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