Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

Just a quick post to acknowledge that OG scored post number 3000 in this thread - to be fair, I think he posted most of those anyway!

OG has shown a lot of insight and intelligence about the subject matter and I really can't disagree with his view of things. For the tory PM to not immediately trigger Article 50 is very telling, in my view but, as always, time will tell where the country goes with this.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Just saw this from the late American stand-up comic, George Carlin, and it echoes my feelings about national identity and all the xenophobia and jingoism that has been the common bond among the anti-EU brigade in the absence of any intelligent argument from them.

Please ignore the couple of swear words in the piece - I believe it's allowed in theatre under some kind of artistic licence.



Tom

 

[tillson]

Closing in on 3,000 posts and my take on 'Brexit' has simply been reinforced.

Leaving the EU would be an act of gross stupidity on every front though most particularly, sheer economics. Because those who populate both chambers of parliament understand that, I actually believe that 'Brexit' will not occur in my lifetime. I hope I'm not wrong.

The campaign to withdraw the UK from membership has always been predicated on a combination of blind ignorance, utter misplaced arrogance and racism. Even in this little cycling forum that last element particularly has been common to many of the comments from the pro-'Brexit' supporters and wrapping their evil beliefs in what some might consider humorous remarks doesn't disguise the entrenched racism of the authors.

I do find it curious that racists really dislike being called racist. The usual rebuttal containing the defence of 'I ain't racist - some of my best mates are black!' or similar, illustrates perfectly their ignorance of what racism actually means.

If I were PM right now, I'd call another referendum for no other reason than to annoy the triumphalist 'Brexit' camp. There would be a huge change in public opinion, I am sure!

Tom

You could have saved a good amount of typing by simply posting the following single sentence:

"Anyone who disagrees with my opinions or thoughts is stupid, racist, evil and a liar."

Of course, you are unable to substantiate any of your vitriol because it is merely your venting of frustration and this is fuelled by the fact that the majority of the country disagrees with you.

Im rather pleased that your bitter, twisted and perverse opinions are in the minority and I sincerely hope that is where they remain.

 

[flecc]

And we all know how inacurate polls are.

Only the ones that don't agree with us are inaccurate.
.

 

[oldtom]

While my inclination is to disbelieve everything that comes from the BBC News Centre, the major tory party propaganda organ, this article from their webpages today may have some truth in it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36853952

My preferences for impartial news delivery these days have migrated to Channel 4, Al Jazeera, RT & Euronews but it's difficult to avoid the major news channels, Sky and BBC, as they are on TV in so many public places and on car radio and I still have mine tuned to R4 or R2.

Tom

 

[trex]

Matthew Elliott was on this morning's Daily Politics talking about how his strategy has won the referendum for leave. He was quite candid and unrepentant about the promises - when asked, he was clear: 'delivery is the task for government'. It has never been a problem for him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36857308

 

[oldgroaner]

Matthew Elliott was on this morning's Daily Politics talking about how his strategy has won the referendum for leave. He was quite candid and unrepentant about the promises - when asked, he was clear: 'delivery is the task for government'. It has never been a problem for him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36857308

Perfectly normal behaviour for a Tory politician or supporter.
Why bother with the truth when you can get your way by treating the public like idiots and lying to them?
They don't have to believe you do they?
They would have to be stupid to do that.
Really they ask for it as they never check do they?

Style of thing
Anyone else feel this is especially relevant at the moment?
And maybe feel a little uneasy about what has happened and is going on right now?

 

[oldgroaner]

Just a quick post to acknowledge that OG scored post number 3000 in this thread - to be fair, I think he posted most of those anyway!

OG has shown a lot of insight and intelligence about the subject matter and I really can't disagree with his view of things. For the tory PM to not immediately trigger Article 50 is very telling, in my view but, as always, time will tell where the country goes with this.

Tom

Thanks Tom, however as it says in the bible
"And some fell upon stony ground and did not prosper"
About sums up what I achieved, still I did try, and will only stop when the experiment succeeds or more likely fails.
Churchill summed up our situation rather well, (if you are willing to equate the intensity of the average Brexit leaver's antipathy (often expounded on this thread) to the EU as being a Non violent conflict or "War"
The Churchill quote?
"Wars are not won by evacuations"
Especially when the country involved has virtually no navy or boats to patrol the borders it wants to close, and no plan worthy of the name to work by.

 

[oldgroaner]

The problem is that it has split the country,I dont know any previous action by parliament that has caused so much diverse opinion. On this there appears no grey area of compromise,Leavers want Out,whatever the cost,Remainers want in because they can already see the cost.
However,Theresa May has said she wont trigger Article 50 until 2017,she also has said that she wont try to use the Royal prerogative until after the result of the court cases,she daren't put it to parliament because she know she would lose,that arithmetic is unquestionable.
However,there is going to have to be massive compromises if all are to be satisfied....May has to satisfy the EU.the Scots the 16 million remainers and the 17 million leavers,that is going to be some task...Brexit means Brexit but what does Brexit mean?
KudosDave

She's BRoken the EXIT there I think that's probably right, and shortly we will see "Road Closed" and "Diversion" signs to ensure the traffic goes in the desired direction.
Here is an example of the sort of wishy washy support May has for Brexit.
"On Wednesday, at a joint press conference with Mrs Merkel, Mrs May said the UK was in no rush to trigger the two-year process of leaving the EU - telling reporters that although "this would not please everyone" it was right to hold off until the UK's "objectives were clear".
What the heck does she mean by saying "until the UK's "objectives were clear".
And this is the same clown who says "Brexit means Brexit"?
And doesn't know what her objectives are?
Well now, haven't the voters made themselves crystal clear on the subject?
invoke Article 50! THEN NEGOTIATE
She would press the fire button on Trident, but not invoke Article 50 as promised?
Bring back Boris, make him do it if you daren't he is Foreign Secretary isn't he?

 

[trex]

flud, it's me who hit the like button on most of OG's posts because he usually does not do nice and does not mince his words.

 

[oldgroaner]

You missed out his opinionated myopic rambling and his inability, even when asked, to offer any kind of constructive advice, apart from saying " tell the truth", which is as near to a positive comment has he has got on this entire thread.
I also take great exception to an earlier post of yours insisting leavers are racist. Utter rubbish, and your post itself was leaning quite heavily that way." People who say their best friends are black" was somehow used to indicate they were racist.." but you chose black ?
Why was that Tom..perhaps you are the real racist, and can not see controlling borders is nothing to do with race, colour or creed, yet you see it as racist...because you are.
Ps I,m black..and have never had any racial problems in UK..ever. .quite the reverse.

I also suspect OG either has a duplicate ID or a stalker. His like button gets hit very quickly these days..just a single hit now and again seconds after posting? What do you reckon OG ?

I think perhaps I ought to have whatever you are drinking Flud as it certainly is revealing a creative side to your imagination I ever knew you had!
And why I wonder did you disregard all the many warnings I posted about you being mislead by the liars leading the Leave campaign?
Because it was too difficult for you to admit they had you fooled you equated that with not giving good advice?
In every case I was subsequently proved right.
How very odd!
And the "Tell the Truth" comment was aimed at Teresa May, was that too too difficult for you to understand? it wasn't aimed at you, as I know that such a comment would be unlikely to resonate.
After all, why bother to think when someone else has given it to you nicely parcelled up for you to trot out when you can't be bothered to check on the truth behind the claim?
And now you are having delusions too?
"I also suspect OG either has a duplicate ID or a stalker. His like button gets hit very quickly these days..just a single hit now and again seconds after posting? What do you reckon OG
I reckon you have a very peculiar sense of reality Flud,you are making some very odd remarks, why do you allow a debate to get to you like this? Is it to cover up the fact that you don't have a cogent argument to put forward, and this silly innuendo is all that's left?
Nice try to play the "Race card" by the way (not)

 

[oldgroaner]

flud, it's me who hit the like button on most of OG's posts because he usually does not do nice and does not mince his words.

Does not do nice? I'm hurt! and there was I playing Mr Nice Guy!
In the words of the old song
"Oh Lord! please don't let me be misunderstood!"
Style of thing

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

No OG wrong again.
As usual you read a post and interpret it as you would like to see it, not as it was.
I never for a moment assumed the comment " tell the truth" was directed at me. ( I believe Robf assumed so but still concurred with his reply)

The race card has been played throughout this episode often by folk who don't understand what the word really means, as ably demonstrated by your mate Tom.
It has been used repeatedly by stayers to put leavers in the wrong. Which is exactly what Tom has done twice, and on second occasion clearly demonstrated prejudice in his post. Seems his playing race card and own prejudice has gone unnoticed by you ?
For some god given right you seem to think your views are infallible., you talk of your " ramblings" falling on stony ground.
Now ,again pointing any of this out , your assumption is I,m on some MAS of some kind.
Basically showing yet again what a self righteous pretentious person you are.
When I have my passport checked, hand over my baggage for the radar,walk through a metal detector and then get searched am I saying this is because I,m black. Ofcourse not. Its for safety of us all and nothing to do with race or colour. Those same checks are impossible for neatly all immigrants. Controlling that is irrelevant to race. Folk who say differently are themselves intrinsically racist. I was pointing this fact out to Tom, who blatantly knows nothing about racism. He is simply passing on rhetoric.
Yes , perhaps, leavers have been misled.( think we agreed on that weeks ago) The fact you fail to grasp is much of your spouting is intact government and eu brain washing propoganda. Everything absolutely everything is fed to us all. Google, wikipedia, every source of information for us ALL is manipulated. I accept that for my side and try and compensate. You assume everything you read or research is somehow free of any corruption. Who is the foolish one OG.
My vorws of EU are from having had to work within it, travel all over it and handle millions of pounds. The EU is failing, its corrupt and getting worse. Opinions based not on garbage in any papers but with working and helping folk,and going to places within eu most never do. Its a mess. The uk is not,well less so.

 

[tillson]

I also take great exception to an earlier post of yours insisting leavers are racist. Utter rubbish, and your post itself was leaning quite heavily that way." People who say their best friends are black" was somehow used to indicate they were racist.." but you chose black ?
Why was that Tom..perhaps you are the real racist, and can not see controlling borders is nothing to do with race, colour or creed, yet you see it as racist...because you are.
Ps I,m black..and have never had any racial problems in UK..ever. .quite the reverse.

I wasn't going to mention Tom's earlier insulting swipe at leave supporters, labelling them racist. I parked the comment on the same place as my opinion regarding him, contemptible.

I very much doubt that Tom either understands or has ever seen racism at work. For him it is nothing more than convenient blunt instrument with which to batter people who's opinion differes from his. People like Tom who use this term with casual disregard for its true meaning actually do harm. People hear the Toms of this world bellowing RACIST!!! every time someone suggests something such as controls on Imigration is their preference, and it somehow waters down the meaning of the word.

When Tom uses the types of tactic we are witnessing in his post, I think it's a good indicator that he's a spent force, washed up and finished.

He should re-think what he has said because it's beneath him, even as a remain supporter.

 

[oldgroaner]

No OG wrong again.
As usual you read a post and interpret it as you would like to see it, not as it was.
I never for a moment assumed the comment " tell the truth" was directed at me. ( I believe Robf assumed so but still concurred with his reply)

The race card has been played throughout this episode often by folk who don't understand what the word really means, as ably demonstrated by your mate Tom.
It has been used repeatedly by stayers to put leavers in the wrong. Which is exactly what Tom has done twice, and on second occasion clearly demonstrated prejudice in his post. Seems his playing race card and own prejudice has gone unnoticed by you ?
For some god given right you seem to think your views are infallible., you talk of your " ramblings" falling on stony ground.
Now ,again pointing any of this out , your assumption is I,m on some MAS of some kind.
Basically showing yet again what a self righteous pretentious person you are.
When I have my passport checked, hand over my baggage for the radar,walk through a metal detector and then get searched am I saying this is because I,m black. Ofcourse not. Its for safety of us all and nothing to do with race or colour. Those same checks are impossible for neatly all immigrants. Controlling that is irrelevant to race. Folk who say differently are themselves intrinsically racist. I was pointing this fact out to Tom, who blatantly knows nothing about racism. He is simply passing on rhetoric.
Yes , perhaps, leavers have been misled.( think we agreed on that weeks ago) The fact you fail to grasp is much of your spouting is intact government and eu brain washing propoganda. Everything absolutely everything is fed to us all. Google, wikipedia, every source of information for us ALL is manipulated. I accept that for my side and try and compensate. You assume everything you read or research is somehow free of any corruption. Who is the foolish one OG.
My vorws of EU are from having had to work within it, travel all over it and handle millions of pounds. The EU is failing, its corrupt and getting worse. Opinions based not on garbage in any papers but with working and helping folk,and going to places within eu most never do. Its a mess. The uk is not,well less so.

Flud you are ranting again: this thread is about Brexit, not just here for you to attack anyone that disagrees with your point of view.
Tom is not a "mate" of mine, which is another example of the flights of fancy you are prone to.
There is no "Holy Cause" with a Taboo on it here,and you have no authority over anyone who cares to criticise you decision.
And lets see you quote something I said that was untrue.
Where i said you have been lied to prove one case where i was wrong, go on give it a try.
I pointed you at information that disproves the myths put about by the Leave politicians, but facts wont get past your earplugs and blinkers will they?
To use a favourite Brexit phrase "Get over it, stop moaning."
Do us all a favour and try to stick to the topic.
You are letting emotion cloud your judgement.

 

[oldgroaner]

I wasn't going to mention Tom's earlier insulting swipe at leave supporters, labelling them racist. I parked the comment on the same place as my opinion regarding him, contemptible.

I very much doubt that Tom either understands or has ever seen racism at work. For him it is nothing more than convenient blunt instrument with which to batter people who's opinion differes from his. People like Tom who use this term with casual disregard for its true meaning actually do harm. People hear the Toms of this world bellowing RACIST!!! every time someone suggests something such as controls on Imigration is their preference, and it somehow waters down the meaning of the word.

When Tom uses the types of tactic we are witnessing in his post, I think it's a good indicator that he's a spent force, washed up and finished.

He should re-think what he has said because it's beneath him, even as a remain supporter.

"Even as a remain supporter" rather damages your argument Tillson

 

[tillson]

"Even as a remain supporter" rather damages your argument Tillson

Not really OG. The remain supporter's posts have a tendency to posses a rather unpleasant common thread. That is that the leave side are too stupid to understand what they have voted for. That is rather demeaning in itself, but the introduction of the racist element plunges to new depths. My comment was merely intended to point out that this racism accusation is beneath contempt.

 

[derf]

don't you watch Pointless? if you ask 100 people if today is Thursday, probably 10 are too drunk to know which day it is.

Yes,the brexit fiasco has dramatically changed my perception of democracy. Political science aside I think the right to vote should be on condition of someone having capacity (in a psychiatric sense viz sectioning for example) and being able to prove they are informed enough to pass qualified judgement. Otherwise it's all just damaging madness.

 

[derf]

It's something that was never mentioned until after the referendum took place. Not a word about it only being an advisory poll at all, from anyone.

Only after the result was announced did it start to he talked about, almost exclusively by the losing side. It may be a fact that the government are not obliged to act on the result but they will.

The case to ignore the result based on it only being advisory may technically be possible, but so child like, undemocratic and toxic is the notion that they dare not. Only the lowest of low-life would support such measures and it would be a massive boost for UKIP at the next election.

I detect that after the initial shock of the out vote, people were rocking on their heals for a couple of weeks, even the out voters. Now things are settling, I think the pendulum is swinging back to where it was pre vote. That is the majority want out. I was listening to a Radio 5 public debate this morning and that's what I picked up. I'm also hearing it in general conversation.

I think the peevish, spoilt-brat like children saying "it's not fair, I want another vote" had better grow up, accept what has happened, support their country's chosen direction and get on with it.

This nay-saying is beyond pathetic and people are making a disgrace of themselves in the process. Have some self respect and accept what has happened.

I think this post says more about you than any of us

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Not really OG. The remain supporter's posts have a tendency to posses a rather unpleasant common thread. That is that the leave side are too stupid to understand what they have voted for. That is rather demeaning in itself, but the introduction of the racist element plunges to new depths. My comment was merely intended to point out that this racism accusation is beneath contempt.

Personally, I've never said "all" about any group of people, and include that about "leavers"... however whilst a couple of you on here do have what appear to be valid reasons that you believe passionately in clearly, even you guys have to admit there are a % of "leavers" who fit into one of these two categories...

1) ignorant... which is excusable, you can't help what you don't know (to a certain extent).
2) racist... not so excusable.

Obviously there are leavers who don't fit into these two camps, but the % of leavers that do is the point that many remain voters aren't coping well with.