Which invalidates what Theresa May and otlher politicians referring to Novichoc have said.
To condense the last sentence, could be almost anything from anyone.
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Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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To condense the last sentence, could be almost anything from anyone.
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One reason might be, that contrary to some postings the fabrication of these poisons might not be trivial, but that wider dissemination of the knowledge might encourage their use by non state actors.
No. I am not accepting that.
I am not interested in vindicating or hanging any British politician or indeed Russian . I am pointing out logical inconsistencies in the arguements as presented. As I understand it, one can have an active payload in an organic molecule and can join it with an almost infinite combination of other organic molecules, so that in one instance it could be a fat .. a lipid, in another it could be an alcohol, in another acidic . When an organic molecule is named for example the chemical we call asprin, it is a very precise formulation , and specific isomer and no other.
In the initial UK identication they were using the word Novichoc family when perhaps extended clan might have been a better choice.
I'm trying to relocate the link where I got this from
. The OPCW signature for the “Novichok” agents was produced by Iran under OPCW supervision for the express purpose of adding this agent to the OPCW database of Nerve agents.
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From what formula? so why are they now unwilling to actually name it, but agree only with Porton Down and go no further than that?
When they already have the primary formula?
If I may offer this thought
And logically there is no way that such a possibly new version in a loose grouping can be categorically stated as being of Russian origin?
That surely is a logical inconsistency if ever there was one?
I deliberately exaggerated to emphasise the large scope of possibilities within what has been said.
I still fail to see any basis for the claims of evidence for the source or any party's guilt.
All I see is a very unpleasant ganging up, most of the particants joining in with their "side", rather than on the basis of any evidence. Playground stuff.
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one comment that attracted my attention wis paragraph 11:
I spent two years trying to refine one particular compound because of its optically active property ('a chiral pair'). Impurities are very difficult to avoid, even with all the right gears. You can't achieve it without much experience.
That may be what supports TM's argument.
That does give some support, but like other evidence claimed it's circumstantial. To believe only Russia has the necessary expertise would be far fetched.
And it works both ways. The purity achieved defies accurate tracing of the source, something any country guilty would want.
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that's why the Russians think it's our guys from Porton Down.
Indeed. The whole affair is very silly and we should never have leapt into it so carelessly. We could never achieve anything by the accusation since Russia would just deny it, creating an impasse, exactly as has happened.
We are the ones left helpless, Russia meanwhile smugly enjoying our discomfiture. Little wonder May and co are willingly talking about Syria instead, probably with some relief.
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There are at least thirty different national groups in China as an example, could you actual "finger" one for making a particular individual motor?
That is the sort of problem we face in using this evidence.
Here the case if that this is deemed not to be actually a known and registered version of Novichoc, but something new but pure.
All it does is reflect the competence of the nation that created it, a short list indeed, but there are quite a few with this capability.
Wikipedia have a page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent
"In 2016, Iranian chemists synthesised five Novichok agents for analysis and produced detailed mass spectral data which was added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical Database.[12][13] Previously there had been no detailed descriptions of their spectral properties in open scientific literature.
Which still poses the question why such coy avoidance in naming it?
And we are led to believe the agent in question was delivered from Syria according to RAF intercepted phone calls.
We are expected to swallow the following
"The parcel has been delivered" and "they made a safe egress"
As being the work of the FSB?
Oh my! the opposition must hold our intelligence people in contempt if that is the level of security they think adequate.
But the real authors of the fake message had quite correctly surmised we would be only too pleased to fall for it as it was so convenient!
Classic Framing sting!
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the support for the Russian point of view is that the UK and USA developed these acetylcholine-esterase inhibitors in the 60s even before the Russians.
That is no douby why the OPCW got the Iranians to produce samples as the usual culprits wouldn't tell them...
USA, UK then following after them, Russia .
So we have been guily of non disclosure to the OPCW have we?
No wonder Porton Down want to keep this quiet, what other skeletons are in that particular cupboard, being wrought in our name?
At the very least I would expect the Chinese, North Koreans to be quite capable of doing the same.
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very possibly.
the problem with concordance between the labs that did the identification work is they are likely to use the same sampling technique, same equipment and given the same samples.
https://www.agilent.com/cs/library/technicaloverviews/public/5988-9453EN.pdf
If that is the case, then every police officer who considers such a possibility among others in every type of inquiry could be prosecuted. It would be negligent to not consider such a possibility based on the fear factor you have introduced.
Tom
GIGO?
Just kidding, thanks for the information, handy if anyone fancies doing a little analysis after clearing out the garage (jest)
It does however demonstrate the degree of technical information in the Public Domain.
The danger for Governments is that people that they would prefer not to know such levels of detail are able to reach them.
please remember to post your "Visiting hours" before you leave us(Just kidding I hope)