Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

Much of the current nonsense about Russia, about poisons and deadly nerve agents that don't quite seem to match the description have been conjured up for two reasons:

The first reason is that the government wishes to draw the public's attention away from the disaster that 'Brexit' has become already, before we even get to the point of no return.

The second is to make use of the media to feed the public with more propaganda designed to discredit Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party.

While there can be no denying that the first of those has worked, the second has once again failed miserably as Corbyn has emerged looking wiser, more considered and more statesmanlike than ever.

I am reminded again of the tory tactic being used against Corbyn and Labour; it is straight out of the Nazi party's MO, refined by Joseph Goebbles and practised by Herman Göring, Hitler and all other major figures in the German hierarchy in WW2. Göring explained it like this:



"Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice..."

- Hermann Göring

The tory party are enacting Goebbels' methods exactly and the dangers of allowing such people carte blanche over the present and future welfare of the common people should be evident to anyone who, not only knows their history, but is aware that history has a terrible habit of repeating itself.

No-one should be fooled into thinking that 'Brexit', the Russian issue, the relentless attacks on Jeremy Corbyn and Labour together with the tories' precarious grip on power are unconnected - this is all about increasing their power. It is about fascism!

We know that power corrupts but we also know that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

The first reason is that the government wishes to draw the public's attention away from the disaster that 'Brexit' has become already, before we even get to the point of no return.

there is always a possible return.
That's the strong point of a democratic system like ours.
The first step is to remove the tories from power.

 

[oldtom]

The tory success in diverting public attention away from 'Brexit' has worked a treat! All across the various social media there is widespread comment about the 'Russian issue', rather than news about 'Brexit'.

There seems to be a great awareness that Corbyn has taken the right line through all the recent speculation amounting to a fantastic 'whodunnit' that is unlikely to ever be solved.



This comparison is entirely fair and should be subject to investigation:



This is what the fascist government's friendly media don't publish:



Schneider's comment looks ever more appropriate:


Tom

 

[Woosh]

Which is why the government have not supplied Russia with a sample to support their accusation, they haven't got one.
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alternatively, they have a lot of samples and just don't want to help the Russians for obvious reasons.

 

[flecc]

alternatively, they have a lot of samples and just don't want to help the Russians for obvious reasons.

Knowing the lies our governments have previously told about tracing and many other matters, I think the information from Craig Murray in a link in Tom's published article is the most likely situation. That there is no scientific evidence to support the allegations so the government have resorted to extreme bluff.

Normally in these fallings out between Russia and ourselves the reponses have been proportionate, like the Russian expulsion of an equal 23 diplomats. It's usually a resigned and accepting response for what's been done. But this time the addition of the closure of the British Council and the St Petersburg consulate with all their staffs ejected as well is an extreme reaction, indicating to me that there is genuine Russian anger about this accusation. This could cost us dear for a very long time.
.

 

[Woosh]

Knowing the lies our governments have previously told about tracing and many other matters, I think the information from Craig Murray in a link in Tom's published article is the most likely situation. That there is no scientific evidence to support the allegations so the government have resorted to extreme bluff.

Normally in these fallings out between Russia and ourselves the reponses have been proportionate, like the Russian expulsion of an equal 23 diplomats. It's usually a resigned and accepting response for what's been done. But this time the addition of the closure of the British Council and the St Petersburg consulate with all their staffs ejected as well is an extreme reaction, indicating to me that there is genuine Russian anger about this accusation. This could cost us dear for a very long time.
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TM has a lot of experience in U-turns and survived.

 

[Woosh]

Hilary Benn made a good interview on BBC1 Sunday Politics just now.
If anyone fancies a long read, here is the link:

http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/exiting-the-european-union-committee/news-parliament-2017/progress-negotiations-march-report-published-17-19/

 

[oldtom]

As journalists go, I have never cared much for Peter Hitchens whom I have always found to be something of a straw man in his political stance. On this occasion, I applaud him for being sufficiently insightful to recognise the dangers inherent in acquiescing with the policies currently being pursued by the tories.

There is great danger in public complacency when the British government follows policies that will tear the UK away from our European friends and neighbours while simultaneously setting us firmly against the powerful Russian nation.

Worse, is the abhorrent use of government-inspired propaganda against their political opponents generally and Jeremy Corbyn in particular.

In this article, Hitchens addresses the dangers for everyone if we allow this government to continue their reckless and dangerous behaviour, both at home and internationally:

peter-hitchens-the-patriotic-thought-police-came-for-corbyn-you-are-next.html

Tom

 

[Woosh]

OT, I am sure JC will give back as good as he gets.
if JC needs to be protected from the right wing press then he won't be good enough to be our next PM.

 

[Danidl]

Knowing the lies our governments have previously told about tracing and many other matters, I think the information from Craig Murray in a link in Tom's published article is the most likely situation. That there is no scientific evidence to support the allegations so the government have resorted to extreme bluff.

Normally in these fallings out between Russia and ourselves the reponses have been proportionate, like the Russian expulsion of an equal 23 diplomats. It's usually a resigned and accepting response for what's been done. But this time the addition of the closure of the British Council and the St Petersburg consulate with all their staffs ejected as well is an extreme reaction, indicating to me that there is genuine Russian anger about this accusation. This could cost us dear for a very long time.
.

A healthy questioning of a government is a good response, and there are always things going on which are not being made public. Could it not also be the case here. Perhaps the penny has dropped in Whitehall that the actions of Russian interests have been increasing in scale and intensity, and this is yet another probable instance? If there is anybody to whom you should be giving the benefit of the doubt to it is your own civil service.. not unquestioning but circumspect.
The notion that this is a distraction from brexit is irrelevant, other than in the general terms that it is in a russian interest to have a weakened EU.

 

[flecc]

In this article, Hitchens addresses the dangers for everyone if we allow this government to continue their reckless and dangerous behaviour, both at home and internationally:

peter-hitchens-the-patriotic-thought-police-came-for-corbyn-you-are-next.html

I particularly back Hitchens call for the disbandment of NATO. It's been nothing but a cause of political trouble and conflict since the end of the Cold War and I've long been opposed to its existence.

It only continues to exist because the USA finds it a useful extension of pseudo-colonial power beyond its borders.
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[oldgroaner]

alternatively, they have a lot of samples and just don't want to help the Russians for obvious reasons.

Careful there, you'll upset Zlatan!
Then lord help us, we'll never hear the end of it!

 

[oldgroaner]

A healthy questioning of a government is a good response, and there are always things going on which are not being made public. Could it not also be the case here. Perhaps the penny has dropped in Whitehall that the actions of Russian interests have been increasing in scale and intensity, and this is yet another probable instance? If there is anybody to whom you should be giving the benefit of the doubt to it is your own civil service.. not unquestioning but circumspect.
The notion that this is a distraction from brexit is irrelevant, other than in the general terms that it is in a russian interest to have a weakened EU.

I think you will find no one has made any comments about the Civil Service anywhere, nor criticised them.
All comments have been aimed at the Tory's
The Conservative Party are from being a "Civil Service"

"A crude and loud mouthed set of incompetents of questionable loyalty after accepting Money from a possibly none too friendly Foreign power " would not be a mile away from the truth.
He must have laughed at having to pay less for them than they did for the DUP, and now this!

If I was Putin I would ask for a Refund!

 

[Woosh]

The notion that this is a distraction from brexit is irrelevant, other than in the general terms that it is in a russian interest to have a weakened EU.

I would have thought that in the long run, Russia may join the EU if the EU causes NATO to be disbanded.

 

[flecc]

- - things going on which are not being made public. - - - - Could it not also be the case - - - - Perhaps - - - - - probable - - - - - circumspect.

These common utterances, together with admissions of evidence being circumstantial and inconclusive, not necessarily pointing to any party, are what I'm objecting to when used as an indication of guilt, especially when accompanied by deliberate lies with those changed later into alternative lies to suit objections.

So no, I'm not inclined to give any benefit of the doubt to our civil service. That puts on course towards matching the Russian behaviour which I've always agreed is very far from our expected standards.

The notion that this is a distraction from brexit is irrelevant,

Fully agreed, the convenient juxtaposition is I'm sure entirely coincidental.
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[anotherkiwi]

Fully agreed, the convenient juxtaposition is I'm sure entirely coincidental.
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Oh come on! Can't we have a good conspiration theory once in a while? I mean the whole USA is run on conspiration theories after all...

 

[oldgroaner]

Hilary Benn made a good interview on BBC1 Sunday Politics just now.
If anyone fancies a long read, here is the link:

http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/exiting-the-european-union-committee/news-parliament-2017/progress-negotiations-march-report-published-17-19/

Well I hope this last bit is true!
"Achieving agreement on how to handle Brexit is far from easy as the debates in the Select Committee and in Parliament demonstrate. But in the end Parliament will determine what happens."

Is that "The Parliament " or the "Alt.Parliament"?

 

[flecc]

Oh come on! Can't we have a good conspiration theory once in a while? I mean the whole USA is run on conspiration theories after all...

Ok, it was the French. After all, they blew up a Greenpeace ship docked in a land you are very familar with, so they must be guilty of whatever it is being discussed.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

These common utterances, together with admissions of evidence being circumstantial and inconclusive, not necessarily pointing to any party, are what I'm objecting to when used as an indication of guilt, especially when accompanied by deliberate lies with those changed later into alternative lies to suit objections.

So no, I'm not inclined to give any benefit of the doubt to our civil service. That puts on course towards matching the Russian behaviour which I've always agreed is very far from our expected standards.



Fully agreed, the convenient juxtaposition is I'm sure entirely coincidental.
.

And incidentally, one might add Highly Fortuitous indeed which is a bit too much of a coincidence?

 

[flecc]

And incidentally, one might add Highly Fortuitous indeed which is a bit too much of a coincidence?

I don't think so. Coincidences are far more common than we might think and we can and often do create them by going looking for them. Once we do that the coincidences can be overwhelming in number.

Once a person I met also had one Italian parent, and then we realised that we both had the same two initials for our Christian and surnames.

So we went looking and found that we were both the second child of our families. Not only that, we were also the second son in each case.

Then we discovered that our birthdays were on the 1st and 2nd of September, and finally that they were in order of our ages.

It shows how incredibly common coincidence can be, confirmed by academic research on the subject.
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