Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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Some may argue that is because the EU's structures and systems suit Germany better than any other member countries.
This is an empty argument. What the Germans can work with, we can too, and that is proven by the very large number of British people who live and work in Germany and have done for years. Indeed increasing numbers have been taking up German nationality, surely a clear sign of compatibility with life, culture and working circumstances.
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Woosh

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Brilliant economists? that seems to be an Oxymoron along the lines of "Military Intelligence"
Take Minford for example, preferably take him somewhere else entirely,he believes job losses among the Plebs after Brexit to be a desirable collateral effect, the man is a menace.
Minford works for the hard brexiters, whereas the Treasury's economists will make the best of the situation.
As I said before, every cloud has a silver lining. They'll find it, it's their job.
Please note that the Treasury estimates that the period that brexit causes us problem is about 15 years.
 

Woosh

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This is an empty argument. What the Germans can work with, we can too, and that is proven by the very large number of British people who live and work in Germany and have done for years. Indeed increasing numbers have been taking up German nationality, surely a clear sign of compatibility with life, culture and working circumstances.
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Compared to us, the Germans are apparently happier with being organised.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Please note that the Treasury estimates that the period that brexit causes us problem is about 15 years.
That gets us to the point where we run out of electricity due to our failure to build enough power stations, and our super economists will be learning from necessity how the abacus works. :)
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Woosh

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Do you really think a global entity should behave like a used car salesman?
I mentioned Donald Trump as an example. The issue is short term versus long term. The US of E won't happen for many years but it may just happen in the next 20 years.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Compared to us, the Germans are apparently happier with being organised.
And so are we in Britain, we take pride in working for well organised and efficient companies, Nissan Sunderland and BMW Oxford for example.

Our problem isn't that we don't like being organised, it's not having enough native managements who can organise, so the Japanese and Germans have to show how.
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Woosh

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Very hard to find the silver lining delivered by, for example, hurricane Irma.

Have you actually tried saying that to the inhabitants of Anguilla? Or wherever else.
I watched a program about Anguilla a couple of days ago. After the storm, electricity was knocked out and a lot of people had to put up with candles etc.
When they got reconnected, it was with brand new, up to date trip switch and meters. So there a was a silver lining.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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we are a long way from 1973.
Let's take a look at the G7 countries.
If you compare for the period since we joined (1973) how much in growth Canada, the USA and Japan, the 3 countries outside the EU, have achieved against the four in the EU: Germany, UK, France and Italy, the 3 outsiders do better than the 4 insiders.
Some may argue that is because the EU's structures and systems suit Germany better than any other member countries.
EU structures are all that is keeping us from sinking fast.
Without the EU the fact that our "Structures" are 50% foreign owned and "only here for the EU Beer", plus financial swindles that also require EU access are all that stands between the nation and Penury
 
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oldgroaner

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I watched a program about Anguilla a couple of days ago. After the storm, electricity was knocked out and a lot of people had to put up with candles etc.
When they got reconnected, it was with brand new, up to date trip switch and meters. So there a was a silver lining.
Who paid?
 
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oldgroaner

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Minford works for the hard brexiters, whereas the Treasury's economists will make the best of the situation.
As I said before, every cloud has a silver lining. They'll find it, it's their job.
Please note that the Treasury estimates that the period that brexit causes us problem is about 15 years.
It was their job before we joined the EEC
They failed signally and there is no reason whatever to support the Pie in the sky notion that won't happen again
Behind this cloud is a Storm Front not a Silver lining.
 

Woosh

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It was their job before we joined the EEC
They failed signally and there is no reason whatever to support the Pie in the sky notion that won't happen again
I suspect that after the end of WW2, the Brits took the eye off the ball a bit, enjoyed their victory over Germany and did not work as hard as the Germans rebuilding this country and pay off war related debts. Plus, pulling out of the colonies must have cost a bit too. It took a bit longer than Germany, France and the Benelux to get back to normal. The UK was member of the EAA and EFTA before 73. By 1973, the EU was clearly a better version of the EAA and EFTA. No wonder the UK, Sweden, Denmark, Austria and Portugal decided to join. The UK was still then saddled with war and colony related costs but far from desperate. If the UK hadn't joined the EU, it may still do just as well as an EAA/EFTA member.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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pulling out of the colonies must have cost a bit too.
More than a bit. It's somewhat of a myth that Britain was a successful manufacturer of good products in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Our "success" was in having a completely captive huge market in our empire. Once we started to lose that and our products were exposed to the competition we were shown to be very lacking. Hence the rapid decline and collapse of our industries then in the face of far better and sometimes but not always cheaper foreign products.

You remarked earlier that 1973 was a long time ago. Sadly that's often only numerically, we still have far too much of 1973 in our managements, politics and philosophy.
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Anyone in the UK taking stock today of the politico-economic landscape in the country would probably have noticed the following:

28379644_1718726444815151_6971936934704006021_n.png

Another thing that would have grabbed the attention of all reasonable observers was this bribe ex-gratia payment to the political wing of the UDA and UVF who take care of the family business in the Irish quarter uphold tory values in the 6 counties and are always willing to offer their loyal and unconditional support so long as the price is right! to their colleagues at Westminster.

28467668_1718723138148815_7051582778821396066_n.png

I'm led to believe there is now a movie being made about the rise of neo-fascism in the British Isles and I have been sent a poster illustrating the main character in charge........

28279109_1083071981835320_8838981312851561574_n.jpg

Tom
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
If the UK hadn't joined the EU, it may still do just as well as an EAA/EFTA member.
That would require that the UK performed some kind of miracle - the country was dying on its feet, the currency was going down the pan and carmakers, shipbuilders and other major producers overseas were building good quality, reliable products that people wanted to buy, all on much smaller profit margins than British industry leaders and their shareholders were prepared to accept.

Tom
 
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Woosh

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That would require that the UK performed some kind of miracle - the country was dying on its feet, the currency was going down the pan and carmakers, shipbuilders and other major producers overseas were building good quality, reliable products that people wanted to buy, all on much smaller profit margins than British industry leaders and their shareholders were prepared to accept.

Tom
the EEA and EFTA are effectively associated members of the EU, it's EU minus the political integration.
It's the recent expansion of the EU that led to the brexiters' victory. If the EU were to keep its 1973 borders, the US of E may have been reality by now. If the EU keeps its 2003 borders, brexiters would not have won.
I put it to you that our special relationship with the USA is the reason leading to brexit.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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I suspect that after the end of WW2, the Brits took the eye off the ball a bit, enjoyed their victory over Germany and did not work as hard as the Germans rebuilding this country and pay off war related debts. Plus, pulling out of the colonies must have cost a bit too. It took a bit longer than Germany, France and the Benelux to get back to normal. The UK was member of the EAA and EFTA before 73. By 1973, the EU was clearly a better version of the EAA and EFTA. No wonder the UK, Sweden, Denmark, Austria and Portugal decided to join. The UK was still then saddled with war and colony related costs but far from desperate. If the UK hadn't joined the EU, it may still do just as well as an EAA/EFTA member.
The problem was exemplified by the company I worked for that invested Nothing whatsover in updating the machine tools it bought second hand in 1909 when it started in business.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
the EEA and EFTA are effectively associated members of the EU, it's EU minus the political integration.
It's the recent expansion of the EU that led to the brexiters' victory. If the EU were to keep its 1973 borders, the US of E may have been reality by now. If the EU keeps its 2003 borders, brexiters would not have won.
I put it to you that our special relationship with the USA is the reason leading to brexit.
Really you are forgetting recent history the expansion of the EU was urged and egged on by who pray?
Our Conservative Government!

I put it to you that in the minds of the Brexit Voters were four simple reasons
  1. They hated Austerity and Blamed the EU for it because they never check the "Truth" the media give them
  2. Liars had misled them about the effects of immigration and promised the Earth and more for the NHS
  3. The Government wanted to remain in the EU, ergo the voters didn't to spite them
  4. They were led to believe it was the "patriotic" thing to do.
 

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