Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

I refer to the margin 48/52 as possibly indecisive. If parliament takes the view that the margin was indecisive, then the correct course of action is to vote again.

So where did I say anything about this in the linked post?

I am arguing against the idea of restricting the right to vote.
To me, that will put democracy at risk and embolden dictators
People voted for brexit for a number of reasons so why single out this or that particular reason and accuse them of being ignorant (because they did not comprehend enough on that subject) or idiot for being sold a pup. Those insults and similar do not help bridging the divide.

And nothing I proposed in the linked post would prevent them voting exactly the same way again if they showed a basic understanding of the issue. I made no mention in that post of idiocy or ignorance, and with such a voting method I wouldn't be able to. Surely that's an improvement?

I think you are too obsessed with the notion of perfect democracy when what we have is so very far from it. And the reason it doesn't exist is precisely because the system puts all the power into the elites that result from our present system of elections and governance. My proposal takes the power of policy setting away from them, giving it back to the people but with the safeguard of ensuring the peoples' choices are based upon some knowledge.
.

 

[oyster]

Sadly, the UK government, to achieve savings, decided to close a large number of semi-secure mental hospitals and pretended to the general public that the patients reliant on the services provided by those institutions could be managed under a new, 'Care in the Community' programme.

Just look at how many luxury flats/apartments/other homes have been created in the former hospital buildings and grounds! Some developers seem to have done very well out of the policy.

 

[Danidl]

It seems as though Jeremy Corbyn is now sick and tired of being accused of this, that and the other by the despicable scum that is the tory party, represented and disseminated by the British media

Here is the letter from Corbyn's solicitor to Ben Bradley MP:

you-need-to-read-the-letter-from-corb-s-lawyers-to-ben-bradley-tory-mp

Tom

.. that is exactly the response i would have expected, if one is libeled. Issue proceedings , get the person to publicly retract.. and hurt them in their pocket...

 

[Woosh]

The vote isn't in any way a part of human development

I don't believe I have an idealistic view of democracy but I think it is the most valuable human development to date and the vote is a key manifestation of it. On the same line of thought, religions, education, equal rights to all sexes, equal rights to immigrants etc are also manifestations oof our current state of development. If we start to mess with these fundamental achievements by introducing 'mean tessting' on one or several of those universal rights, we'll regress.

 

[oldgroaner]

they are just examples of extrapolation, OT.
If the premise is to require that voters satisfies one particular condition, in this instance, a level of comprehension of the issue they are about to vote on, then it's just the thin edge of wedge of an undemocratic state. You just as well go back to the days that only some citizens had the right to vote.

Interesting that you should say that

" You just as well go back to the days that only some citizens had the right to vote"
That is after all what happened with the Brexit Referendum, wasn't it?

 

[oldgroaner]

.. that is exactly the response i would have expected, if one is libeled. Issue proceedings , get the person to publicly retract.. and hurt them in their pocket...

About time Guido Fawkes and the Gutter Press received similar letters.

 

[oldgroaner]

In the Telegraph.
"
Divergence winsBrexiteers claim victory after Chequers talks"

Now the real trouble begins

 

[Woosh]

In the Telegraph.
"
Divergence winsBrexiteers claim victory after Chequers talks"

Now the real trouble begins

I usually take the headlines of the DT, the Sun and the Express with a pinch of salt.
JC is moving off the fence, preparing to inflict defeat on TM's administration when the customs union bill comes to parliament in April.
We may see TM toppled after that, JC would then demand a new GE in May.

 

[oldgroaner]

I usually take the headlines of the DT, the Sun and the Express with a pinch of salt.
JC is moving off the fence, preparing to inflict defeat on TM's administration when the customs union bill comes to parliament in April.
We may see TM toppled after that, JC would then demand a new GE in May.

Well the meeting has achieved one thing.
Guess who has broken out into a sweat?

Wouldn't it be nice to know the reason for this reaction?

 

[Woosh]

Wouldn't it be nice to know the reason for this reaction?

because he wears the flak jacket for his PM?

 

[oldtom]

I wonder what they were discussing at that moment........



.........perhaps it was this little issue which never seems to go away?



Tom

 

[flecc]

I don't believe I have an idealistic view of democracy

I agree that democracy is a very valuable concept.

We should try it sometime.

That was the main drift of my suggestion, giving far more power to the UK population that they have ever had.
.

 

[Woosh]

That was the main drift of my suggestion, giving far more power to the UK population that they have ever had.

I could perhaps agree with that view. A vote for brexit transfers back control from the EU to future dictator PMs of this country. Which is less democratic? the EU parliament or Westminster? The jury is still out, I guess.

 

[flecc]

I could perhaps agree with that view. A vote for brexit transfers back control from the EU to future dictator PMs of this country. Which is less democratic? the EU parliament or Westminster? The jury is still out, I guess.

I'd say the UK is the less democratic, the structure of our democracy still giving undue influence to historic privileges, crown and titled.

And the size and mix of the EU population gives greater future protection that our more restricted one. The former will be much more difficult to abuse than the latter.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

I could perhaps agree with that view. A vote for brexit transfers back control from the EU to future dictator PMs of this country. Which is less democratic? the EU parliament or Westminster? The jury is still out, I guess.

Since when did the EU have Control? it had influence and where we (The Tory element)didn't like it
Euro
Shengen
Social chapter
Further Integration

The Tory Government opted out.

Tell me again what control did the EU impose that we hadn't either agreed with or been the actual Sponsor of?

This "Control"issue thing is an utter nonsense. We never lost any, and none was imposed we didn't agree to.
Urban Myth that's all it is.

 

[Woosh]

Since when did the EU have Control?

the EU has been delegated an increased number of roles: negotiate trade tariff, establish standards in goods, services, energy, communications, the workplace, the environment, foreign aids, VAT, corporation tax, settle disputes between members, subsidies for industries, and common foreign policy. It is about to take on common defense purchases and possibly replacing NATO in the future.
I am quite happy that the EU replaces NATO but not so keen on pooling defense purchases.
They are real controls. I read somewhere that Scotland and Wales would like 111 powers that will be repatriated after brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

the EU has been delegated an increased number of roles: negotiate trade tariff, establish standards in goods, services, energy, communications, the workplace, the environment, foreign aids, VAT, corporation tax, settle disputes between members, subsidies for industries, and common foreign policy. It is about to take on common defense purchases and possibly replacing NATO in the future.
I am quite happy that the EU replaces NATO but not so keen on pooling defense purchases.
They are real controls. I read somewhere that Scotland and Wales would like 111 powers that will be repatriated after brexit.

Note the words
Delegated and Roles.

It had these roles imposed on it by the expressed will of the Member states using an old fashioned idea called "Democracy" through elected Representatives.

Therefore one can postulate that the Member states "Control" the EU apparatus, not the other way round.

 

[Woosh]

Note the words
Delegated and Roles.

TM's negotiating position will introduce a new word: 'voluntary alignment'.
That is, the UK will voluntarily follow EU regulations to reduce trade friction.
We won't delegate, we just follow - the difference? the EU won't be able to fine us.

 

[Danidl]

the EU has been delegated an increased number of roles: negotiate trade tariff, establish standards in goods, services, energy, communications, the workplace, the environment, foreign aids, VAT, corporation tax, settle disputes between members, subsidies for industries, and common foreign policy. It is about to take on common defense purchases and possibly replacing NATO in the future.
I am quite happy that the EU replaces NATO but not so keen on pooling defense purchases.
They are real controls. I read somewhere that Scotland and Wales would like 111 powers that will be repatriated after brexit.

The key question is WHO delegated responsibility... All the sovereign parties , is the states of europE in concert have to agree. By definition if something is delegated, a higher authority has done the delegating.. Until the UK leaves it would have been in position to either veto or modify the range of activities which get delegated.

 

[oldgroaner]

Just a little reminder
To Grease Smug and co what the leave camp promised the public
You have no mandate for the sort of Brexit you want, Smart ass!