You said "Not it seems to Conservative Governments"
You are usually more 'blunt' when referring to the Conservative Government ' Not, it seems...' isn't exactly clear one way or the other, is it?
Brexit, for once some facts.
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You are usually more 'blunt' when referring to the Conservative Government ' Not, it seems...' isn't exactly clear one way or the other, is it?
my niece, living in Berlin danced on the wall on the night / day... The EU was central to the discussion. Of course West Germany was going to reunite and if that had meant expulsion from the EU they would have done so, such was the outwelling of hope. But can you not see that the then EU leadership supported and facilitated the process, even while they understood that a significant fraction of German GDP would be diverted into the reconstruction effort.? If memory serves there was one nation in the EU which was lukewarm,/ antagonistic and Ireland used its good offices to keep their fellow English speakers on board.. Germany remembers that.
My main point in referring to Germany was to provide the context that the European Project is not just about trade deals and monies owed.
I don't know how much soldiering you did in Germany but I was there for some time in 1994, both west Germany and the former eastern part. Most people are familiar with the wall coming down in 1989 but not many will know that in 1994, the Russians were still there, flying the Russian flag over HQ and various outposts.
Although no longer manned, the border infrastructure was largely still in place and the local people remained very cautious about discussing their situation with outsiders, perhaps unsurprisingly given the proximity with Russian troops and quite a bit of weaponry.
In point of fact, those troops remaining in the east were essentially quartermasters with lots of boots on the ground to assist them repatriate stores and equipment back to Russia. My American colleagues, however, were aware of soviet special forces and known KGB operatives still abroad in Germany at that time - 5 years after the wall came down!
After being stuck in traffic for several hours on one occasion, I had to find accommodation for an overnight stop. The hotel I was directed to was very basic and on making inquiries, it transpired that 12 months previously, it had been a barracks for Russian army officers, GRU and Spetsnaz operatives! That was a little spooky!
Whether the EU did or did not have a part is irrelevant. What's important is to recognise the existence and power of the EU bloc, of which we remain a part. Together, we are immensely strong, economically, culturally, strategically and even socially in many ways. In this modern world, membership of such a bloc is about self-interest and survival. Outside, as we seem to be headed, there is nothing but misery for a country without the resources to sustain a large population and defend its people against those who might wish to harm us.
Sadly, it appears as always that the real enemy, the people who wish to harm us are here. They are the British establishment, conducting their dirty business through their political wing, the tory party.
Tom
It was to me, but I forgot to make allowances it seems.
With regard to my post #23928, Peter Stefanovic had this to say about the subject matter:
Tom
Tom
I ran an electronic calibration team across most of Europe, including the embassies in the Eastern Bloc through the 70's. We used to drive our wagon, a US Studebaker through Checkpoint Charlie a couple of time a year and drive deep into the Russian zone making sure that all our radio traffic was on the same frequency. Not sure that makes me an expert on anything to do with the wall coming down but I sure met a lot of Germans on both sides of the wall. Amazingly we used to stay in local B&B's for much of our travels.
There's people, on here, far more qualified than I to be given such an envious title - you for a start?
In response to your request for clarification....EU selfish....it is generally considered that post Brexit trade is important to both EU and UK,but the UK seem willing to offer compromises to keep negotiations moving forward,the EU seems to have given Barnier a demands list and to date has not compromised at all....selfish.
EU bullying....the EU keeps reminding us that we will suffer badly unless we have a post Brexit trade deal but to be offered that deal we will have to give the EU pots of money.....bullying
The Irish PM appears to impress on the UK that we should find a solution to the border problem but he seems not to be lobbying the EU to assist in that task,maybe he should be pushing for a FTD replicating the customs union which would eradicate the border problem,he seems reluctant to criticise the EU in this endeavour.
KudosDave
It's probably down to you choosing, maliciously, I might add 'to Tory austerity'. The truth being that, irrespective of whose fault it was, we were in the mire financially and the Government had to do something about it before we were in the s-h-i-t to then move this on to suggest hundreds of thousands have died as a direct result is plain politicking.
There were three strands to phase 1.. the Irish border question, the rights and reciprocal rights of EU citizens and UK subjects, and the sums of money owing. . The UK were informed of these , and that the EU would negotiate as a block on these three items before any other items were discussed.
You are still fixated about the money. There would not even appear a statement that the UK acknowledges that they had signed up to pay certain sums. Senior cabinet ministers , still in serving positions , have been making comments about nothing owing.. How do you think that reads in Europe.?
I am not familiar with what currently stands as the reciprocal rights issue, but I suspect I would know if it were deemed satisfactory. And remember that the EU in this context is seeking to vindicate the rights of UK subjects as well as other EU citizens.
Mr Barnier has been empowered by our leaders to speak on the Irish border issue. That is the agreed EU strategy, and the UK negotiators could or should have been aware of it. Nevertheless there has been attempts to drive a wedge here. There been a number of meetings on the topic between Irish civil service and EU counterparts, and at political level also.
If you and I shared a boundary, and you had placed a caravan on it for a number of years, so that the hedge beside it had withered away. Then after 20 years, you drove away the caravan, whose responsibility is it to fill the gap and replace the hedge?. If dogs then enter your garden and uproot your tulips, whose fault was it?. They are not my dogs, but I had no bother having them wander my garden...
That Mr Barnier has kept to his brief and not been deflected, is called "consistent" not" bullying. "
It is probably only fair to say that whatever the two sides say in public it is not, indeed cannot be, offered in the same tone used during the actual discussions. Two different audiences (at the very least). We just need to take these things with a pinch of salt and let them get on with it. We'll soon hear if things get really tough in there. Far too much second guessing going on here and that is only ever biased to whatever your personal views. I'll let Dan off this one.
Lets simplify this
We are leaving and want something they are in position to grant or not.
This is a standard situation not a couple of kids arguing in a schoolyard.
The issue is simple we are the supplicants not the EU
To cover our failures we insult their intelligence pretending they can't afford not to give us what we want, and splash it all over the Press
If there was ever a wrong way to go about a negotiation this is surely it.
We want something they can grant and foolishly fool about crying foul when we should be negotiating and to make matters worse we choose as a front man who isn't capable of being taken seriously
They set the rules, we either do it that way or leave with no deal.
There is simply nothing we can do about it is there?
No I don't think so, we have different strengths and values. We need one another. That is not to say I agree with the general press coverage but we are far from being subservient. You suggest that they could ruin us, even if they could I doubt even the most hardheaded Europhile would want to contemplate the consequences of doing so. The papers by the way are not conducting the negotiations.
Full marks for imagination there, how did you come to the conclusion that I suggested they could ruin us?
I made no such statement or even implied that would be the result.
That is pure supposition on your part, which can be construed using the same jump to conclusion technique you did as your acceptance of the notion that no deal would be ruinous.
Personally I don't think it would, but it certainly would hasten the disaster coming our way.
As to the press not running the negotiations, perhaps making them very much harder for your amateur politicians to get the result they want would be closer .
To the EU we are an asset they would prefer to have onside, but really given a little time can be replaced elsewhere, we offer nothing unique apart from some monetary swindles after all, and even they can be sourced from other places and of course will be anyway.
Has it not occured to you that in the EU we are perceived as the "mouse that roared" trying to Bully them, and gaining a negative response in return?
No wonder they look as us as foolish, because that is exactly how as a nation we are behaving.
How embarrassing that as a nation we have wagered our future on lies and false promises born out of internal struggles within the Tory party, and now what have we gained from it all?
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With respect to Mr Davis, I don't think it would make much odds if he were replaced. It's not the medium its the message. ..and the UK message is confused.
If one member of the cabinet speaks and contradicts another that might play well in domestic politics but it does not serve international negotiations.
I can agree with Peter that what we on the outside hear may be totally different than what's going inside closed doors. They could be enjoying fab games of tiddly winks, they could have had everything sorted after the first round of Jammie Dodgers, but somehow I doubt that. The eu side are saying that there is not enough progress.
I did suggest that after the inconclusive election that the British government should have asked for their paper back on the grounds that they could not proceed at that time. But was Mrs May reading this thread?
It's Tusk who keeps on going on about the money not Davis. The U.K. Had no alternative to accept the EU initial 3 demands,but events are making it clear that Brexit needs to be discussed in the round.
Before you can make an offer for something you need to know what you are buying....we need to have the basis of any future trade deal before we can make a cash offer or discuss the method by which a border or no border can be established.
Don't misunderstand I am very much a remainer and still think that the UK has been hi-jacked by a small number of right wing Tories,who don't care anything about the UK,EU including Ireland. But we are where we are and the U.K. must get 'the best possible deal'.
I am of the opinion that the EU is not in a mood to compromise and therefore 'crash out' is looking a likely option with the transition period needed to sort out customs,transition may last 5 years.
KudosDave