Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

Which bit(s) were new, I seem to recall everything said here?

I don't believe, not for a minute, that come March 2019 we will be in the position that we don't know what the deal is and liable to crash out following the two year implementation. The whole point of the implementation period is simply that - to put in place the agreement.

This is on a par with saying that the Government is trying for a hard-Brexit - it isn't.

Which bits are new?.. the interpretation of the raison d'etre for the EU project was articulated very clearly and is part of the thought processes which informs European thinking, not the paltry sum which gets referred to again and again on this forum.
Remember Germany and the EU absorbed the former DDR at significant cost, without a whimper, even though it cost West Germany a decade of growth. There are more important things than money.

 

[Georgew]

Which bit(s) were new, I seem to recall everything said here?

I don't believe, not for a minute, that come March 2019 we will be in the position that we don't know what the deal is and liable to crash out following the two year implementation. The whole point of the implementation period is simply that - to put in place the agreement.

This is on a par with saying that the Government is trying for a hard-Brexit - it isn't.

Best read it again as clearly it didn't penetrate.

 

[PeterL]

And mine, I started the thread and one cannot get more original than that.

My position on this subject is simple and I've made it clear from the outset, I am a Remainer for two reasons:

1) I regard being a part of a major world body as a good thing in a world increasingly made up of giants.

2) The EU is politically slightly left of centre, having a more consistent social conscience than the UK.

Like any organisation created by man, th EU has numerous faults. I recognise them but they do not concern me since I adopt a stoic philosophy in their respect, content that the end justifies the necessary means and these means are not evil.
.
.

Of course, apologies, shouldn't have missed you out Flecc. My position is almost identical, just need to change the odd word here and there.

 

[PeterL]

Best read it again as clearly it didn't penetrate.

I didn't agree with it, if that's what you meant, Jimmy!

 

[PeterL]

Which bits are new?.. the interpretation of the raison d'etre for the EU project was articulated very clearly and is part of the thought processes which informs European thinking, not the paltry sum which gets referred to again and again on this forum.
Remember Germany and the EU absorbed the former DDR at significant cost, without a whimper, even though it cost West Germany a decade of growth. There are more important things than money.

I didn't say Money and I never meant money, I certainly read that article during the week, perhaps without seeing it on here, not sure and certainly have no intention of back-tracking to find out. It is really little more than someone elses opinion and whilst you are totally correct to say that Germany absorbed the former DDR, you surely have to concede that it was very much in West Germany's own interests rather than imply any linkage to the EU.

 

[oldtom]

And mine, I started the thread and one cannot get more original than that.

My position on this subject is simple and I've made it clear from the outset, I am a Remainer for two reasons:

1) I regard being a part of a major world body as a good thing in a world increasingly made up of giants.

2) The EU is politically slightly left of centre, having a more consistent social conscience than the UK.

Like any organisation created by man, th EU has numerous faults. I recognise them but they do not concern me since I adopt a stoic philosophy in their respect, content that the end justifies the necessary means and these means are not evil.
.
.

Not for the first time, I have to applaud one of your posts 'flecc'. While I was taught about Accuracy, Brevity and Clarity (ABC) in producing written material, I fail frequently to achieve that. You, on the other hand, seem to accomplish the task of getting the point across in a few words. That's both efficient and easily digestible to the reader.

Well done Sir!

Tom

 

[PeterL]

Now I've seen everything! Zlatan dislikes his own post!

More likely the accompanying insults?

 

[oldtom]

some more vocal, and insulting than others?

Well, stop doing those things then!

Tom

 

[Danidl]

I didn't say Money and I never meant money, I certainly read that article during the week, perhaps without seeing it on here, not sure and certainly have no intention of back-tracking to find out. It is really little more than someone elses opinion and whilst you are totally correct to say that Germany absorbed the former DDR, you surely have to concede that it was very much in West Germany's own interests rather than imply any linkage to the EU.

Peter, I had formed the opinion that you were a reasoning person.
How was absorbing a land area and population larger than Sweden, ( a guess) not an EU matter? It was greenlighted and facilitated by the EU of course. It was in Europes interest, just as prevention of nuclear war in Europe at that time was in Europes interest...( My advice from western German military sources was that that was a possible outcome at that time )
My point now and the opinion of that commentary is that the idea of a unified Europe based on democratic ideals, would make war between European nations unthinkable. Since there were major wars at 20 year intervals, for a long time and none since 1945,. Perhaps there was something in it.
It is not as if there have not been tensions.. particularly between colonies of member states. Belgian Congo, Rwanda, Indochina

 

[oldtom]

you are totally correct to say that Germany absorbed the former DDR, you surely have to concede that it was very much in West Germany's own interests rather than imply any linkage to the EU.

That is more than a little selective! Not only was it in W Germany's interest, it was in all of Europe and the western world's interests to re-align E Germany with the west, ensuring no way back for Russian communism and preventing a neighbouring land becoming unsettled and potentially dangerous through neglect and negligence.

It was the right thing for W Germany to do; it was the humanitarian thing to do and it was a socialist remedy for the folk next door from a hugely capitalist country that has never lost sight of its obligations to all of its people. Germany is now reaping the benefits of re-aligning their two parts and re-creating the whole.

Tom

 

[PeterL]

Peter, I had formed the opinion that you were a reasoning person.
How was absorbing a land area and population larger than Sweden, ( a guess) not an EU matter? It was greenlighted and facilitated by the EU of course. It was in Europes interest, just as prevention of nuclear war in Europe at that time was in Europes interest...( My advice from western German military sources was that that was a possible outcome at that time )
My point now and the opinion of that commentary is that the idea of a unified Europe based on democratic ideals, would make war between European nations unthinkable. Since there were major wars at 20 year intervals, for a long time and none since 1945,. Perhaps there was something in it.
It is not as if there have not been tensions.. particularly between colonies of member states. Belgian Congo, Rwanda, Indochina

I like to think I am able to reason and at the time I was rather close to Germany having been in Berlin just before the wall came down, I used to work with TA in Frankfurt. It was a truly wonderful time for West Germany and continues to be so. I don't think that the EU even came into those thoughts, this was all about Germany and the reunification of many families. There is no way that the EU can lay claim to any of this.

 

[PeterL]

That is more than a little selective! Not only was it in W Germany's interest, it was in all of Europe and the western world's interests to re-align E Germany with the west, ensuring no way back for Russian communism and preventing a neighbouring land becoming unsettled and potentially dangerous through neglect and negligence.

It was the right thing for W Germany to do; it was the humanitarian thing to do and it was a socialist remedy for the folk next door from a hugely capitalist country that has never lost sight of its obligations to all of its people. Germany is now reaping the benefits of re-aligning their two parts and re-creating the whole.

Tom

Not much to disagree with here, there certainly was a political element to all of this but very much driven by the German people, on both sides of the wall.

 

[oldtom]

My position is almost identical, just need to change the odd word here and there.

I don't think so. Some professional help in altering your entire politico-psychological reasoning to something a little more caring would be a start.

Tom

 

[PeterL]

Well, stop doing those things then!

Tom

Pot, Kettle...

 

[PeterL]

Reme

I don't think so. Some professional help in altering your entire politico-psychological reasoning to something a little more caring would be a start.

Tom

Remember, much earlier today - Action not words...

 

[oldgroaner]

Which bits are new?.. the interpretation of the raison d'etre for the EU project was articulated very clearly and is part of the thought processes which informs European thinking, not the paltry sum which gets referred to again and again on this forum.
Remember Germany and the EU absorbed the former DDR at significant cost, without a whimper, even though it cost West Germany a decade of growth. There are more important things than money.

Not it seems to Conservative Governments

 

[PeterL]

I don't think so. Some professional help in altering your entire politico-psychological reasoning to something a little more caring would be a start.

Tom

Remind me - what would that profession be, I assume you have already been on the course? Lady of the night perhaps?

 

[PeterL]

Not it seems to Conservative Governments

You're still dithering OG or perhaps this is the new reformed OG?

 

[oldgroaner]

other than someone changes his mind, now and again

You will explain away anything a perceived Brexiter will say even a complete Double U turn, where he pours scorn on the idea no matter how absurd you look doing so , won't you?
"The whole issue has proved too divisive.
The country should never have been offered the option of leaving , ultimately it has been proved nobody knew how to achieve it. The writing was on the wall immediately Cameron resigned.It was a bad sign. It was an option he offered he could not deliver. Utter stupidity.

Admittedly it is rare for Zlatan to have moments of rational thought. It just goes to show that even the most unlikely people occasonally see the light.
He even went so far to apologise to me!
I could dig that post out too if you would like to see it, though would prefer to save him the embarrasment really.

Once again please can we have on Topic posts?

 

[oldgroaner]

You're still dithering OG or perhaps this is the new reformed OG?

What are you going on about?