Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Zatlan, I can see from the trajectory of your postings in the longer term that you are coming towards a conclusion some of us had reached a long time ago...
The EU like all human organisations is imperfect. It is peopled by officials who come from national politics and national civil services, with their engrained national mindsets. But it is also a set of principles about ensuring fair play, and negotiation as the means of resolving disputes. It has a social agenda, about treating all the people of Europe as citizens with equal rights, and applying a gentle pressure of bringing them together ... The aim being to reduce nationalism as a destructive force and to promote greater internationalism within Europe. This means that it is sometimes very slow to make changes, as change is determined by the speed of the slowest member prepared to travel. The UK for any number of internal reasons, and possibly because it once had an empire and now commonwealth was very slow to buy into any of these social norms.
We now have a situation where prominent members of your cabinet are rejoicing and looking forward to opportunities of removing health and safety legislation , social protection and environmental protection once they are unfettered by EU norms.
The EU has had limited powers of persuasion, it can only use the power of its courts where a country renages on a commitment that it had previously agreed to adopt. Up to recently any country could cite vital national interest as a ground for derogation or deferring action. A case in point.. the UK is the only European country to retain the mile as the unit of distance.
The UK has traditionally underperformed in the EU , not due to any defect in the EU but because it never valued it's participation. The quality of representatives, it sent, their engagement , their acceptance of portfolios and the reporting of their performance back in the UK has been below par. If other countries send their a team and you send the substitutes , then when national interests are being negotiated, who is likely to have the better outcome.
The woes of the UK cannot be blamed on the EU.

No, I,m not blaming them at all. Your post is actually a good argument for leaving, you accept EU has all the right ideologies but cant enforce them.
PS. I agreed with keeping mile.

 

[Zlatan]

The Foreign car makers wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the EU Market, would they?
I suggest you read Danidl's latest post.

I suggest you do , carefully, its so nearly pro leave. It reinforces my point, if a government feels like ignoring...it does..what is the point in spending millions,having a house of representation, commissioners, MEPs and all this argument but then just ignoring it all.

What remainers really want is to remain and then a government that buys into the EU fully. I don't think that is realistic for UK, Daniel has explained very well why not. We never have, perhaps we never will. Ask Corbyn. He won't answer tho.

 

[PeterL]

Agreed!
But it's really no trouble to keep reminding you of how bad things are already.
No, no trouble at all, you deserve to know even if you don't want to!

It's not a case of being in denial of how bad things are or even of how good they were. Can't actually remember when that was truth be told.

It's more about how good they could be compared to how bad I think they are going to be in the future. Some might think I've been brain-washed, that does presuppose that I actually have one. Who knows, but I think I'm right and time will surely prove that to be the case.

My daughter doesn't agree with me either, but she went to University, and works for the NHS! I wonder who is the more likely to have been brain-washed!

 

[PeterL]

From the Guardian this morning
"
Honda UK warns MPs of consequences of leaving EU customs union
Motor industry says threatened new tariffs could add £1,500 to price of an imported car, and make exports more expensive too
The devastating impact of a hard Brexit on the UK car industry was laid bare on Tuesday to MPs, who were told every 15 minutes of customs delays would cost some manufacturers up to £850,000 a year.

Presenting the industry’s most detailed evidence yet to the business select committee, Honda UK said it relied on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hour’s worth of parts being held on the production line.

The Japanese-owned company said it would take 18 months to set up new procedures and warehouses if Britain left the customs union but that, with 2m daily component movements, even minor delays at Dover and the Channel tunnel would force hundreds of its trucks to wait for the equivalent of 90 hours a day.

“Outside of the customs union, there is no such thing as a frictionless border,” said Honda’s government affairs manager, Patrick Keating.

“I wouldn’t say that the just-in-time manufacturing model wouldn’t work, but it would certainly be very challenging.”
"The industry also fears the impact of new immigration rules for EU nationals. Already 14% of Honda’s 3,500 to 4,000-strong Swindon workforce are from other EU countries, but this is growing fast: of the 600 extra workers hired to build new Civic model last year, 40% were EU workers, as are 30% of the staff at the company’s European HQ in Bracknell."

Must be true then - it was in B/W, I read it a newspaper!

What is the point of this? We are leaving the Customs Union. However, we may well, probably will, negotiate a similar agreement.

 

[PeterL]

Some people seem to have a talent for prose and this is one such example:

MAGIC MONEY TREE


We have a little money tree and it always bears

A slew of silver nutmegs and groans with golden pears.

A hard pressed nurse demanded is there some for me?

Oh no, no such thing as a magic money tree.


We policemen and firemen need numbers, we need pay.

Tough luck, no money tree, perhaps another day.

We high rise tenants need more cash to fireproof our towers.

That would be the councils’ fault; it’s certainly not ours.


Prison officers, what of them, they play a vital role.

Shake the tree with no result, more sackings and the dole.

Shake the branches: and let’s mend the potholes in our streets.

Oh no, we can’t afford the money for such treats.


And is there any cash to fund the NHS?

Well, as we sell it off, its cost is less and less.

In any case, insurance will make it hunky dory.

But a pre-existing illness creates another story.


But what if I’ve been paying insurance all along?

Well, that’s your own fault for living for so long.

It’s your responsibility, staying fit and strong

Quit smoking, drinking, eating, then you can’t go wrong.


We need more cash, we’re desperate, cannot feed our kids.

Can’t you shake that money tree or else we’re on the skids?

How ungrateful can you be, for we deserve more thanks.

Think of all the goodies at our wonderful food banks.


We know there is a money tree, but not where it may grow.

But who eats all the money? No-one seems to know.

Maybe I can help you there. Look hard and you will see

A staggering sum has just gone out to bribe the DUP.


Another Palace falling down, we’re really in the toils.

Let’s see what the money tree produces for the Royals.

A lot of work in here, they say, let’s go on the cadge.

We’ll double your allowance then, Cheers, mate, says Her Maj.


Finding money trees is hard, an arboreal conundrum.

The usual methods just don’t work, a waste of time and humdrum.

Here’s a clue, so gird your loins and shake your lazy bones:

The money trees are to be found in warm and tropic zones.


The money’s doing nothing there, dangling from the boughs.

Think what we could do at home, with what this cash allows.

If we’re down upon our luck and on the bottom bumping,

Let’s go to the money tree and do a spot of scrumping.


The money tree did little for the ninety five per cent.

The other five ate all its fruit: that’s where the money went.

My grateful thanks to the author.

Tom

Be fair now Tom. We (another one for OG) would expect the Poets to vote for such - they/ you are all Turkeys of course. It was clever though - give you that.

 

[PeterL]

The Foreign car makers wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the EU Market, would they?
I suggest you read Danidl's latest post.

OG, I thought you were totally against foreign ownership of our car industry - did I miss something? They have value after all?

Let me put that another way. Who do you think loses if it does all go wrong?

 

[Woosh]

Let me put that another way. Who do you think loses if it does all go wrong?

any government facing a recession will need people to spend more of their money, so rich people can expect tax cut and other incentives to encourage investment.
Consequently, the poorer you are, the greater percentage is your loss. That will be equally true even if Mr Corbyn becomes PM.

 

[Danidl]

I suggest you do , carefully, its so nearly pro leave. It reinforces my point, if a government feels like ignoring...it does..what is the point in spending millions,having a house of representation, commissioners, MEPs and all this argument but then just ignoring it all.

What remainers really want is to remain and then a government that buys into the EU fully. I don't think that is realistic for UK, Daniel has explained very well why not. We never have, perhaps we never will. Ask Corbyn. He won't answer tho.

I am not sure that was the intention in my posting. There are a number of areas in which any national government can insist on a derogation,in some cases temporary, and the areas will be different in each state, but ...and this is important there are many more areas in which all countries agree as an improvement, and they then get implemented. Once that happens, if any company or state renages, then the courts can act. These can be as simple as the technical selection of cladding for buildings, or the power of bikes, or a recognition that " the polluter pays "

What is now different in the commonwealth of 2018 and the commonwealth of 1973, must be evident. More of its countries are bound to regional economic bodies, be they Trans-Pacific or north America, than before and the commonwealth is less of a common wealth than as a social club.
Surely the solution to poor performance is to up the training and engagement and not just walking away with the ball...? Calling defeat a victory?

 

[Woosh]

There are a number of areas in which any national government can insist on a derogation,in some cases temporary, and the areas will be different in each state,

but they usually don't because derogations reflect badly on members seeking them and injured commercial interests can always seek redress from the ECJ.
The fundamental problem has always been redistribution of wealth. It is difficult to do this within the UK, try to get UK citizens to spread their wealth to the other 17 net recipient members may be asking too much.

 

[PeterL]

Surely the solution to poor performance is to up the training and engagement and not just walking away with the ball...?

Absolutely agree, with the thrust of that sentence, not so sure about the ball however. Never quite that simple it would seem, there have been all sorts of training schemes here in the UK. Very few have worked and I would say that the only place they ever will is in the workplace. Many of our Technical Colleges aren't fit for purpose with far too much emphasis on catering as University feeders rather than providing vocational skills. That then leads on to the need for jobs and the industry to support them... I like to think that post-Brexit there will be a better climate for a renewed industrial base, in whatever form that might take. Certainly won't be overnight, so some hard times ahead, before the penny drops.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG, I thought you were totally against foreign ownership of our car industry - did I miss something? They have value after all?

Let me put that another way. Who do you think loses if it does all go wrong?

I am against foreign ownership of production in this country we can thank the conservatives for that , who will lose if they go? We will of course, but then you voted for that to happen, didn't you? You must have decided it was worth risking that, yet had no idea what to replace them with.
No plan then and no plan now.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Kudoscycles]

Except this is all fantasy . The UK parliament may discuss with itself anything it likes, but in the context of Brexit is utterly irrelevant. Option 3 above is not on any table. Persisting with that as a belief is just as harmful as any of the other untruths. The assumption behind it based on an arrogance that the UK is still in the driving seat. It abrogated that when it sent it's letter last march..

Danidl....Option 3 is one of the amendments to the repeal bill...tabled by an SNP guy....I did mention it in a previous posting.
As you say it may get no traction but who knows???
The UK is still in the driving seat for option 3,Lord Kerr who drafted Brexit has confirmed we can reverse it at any time up to March29.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

Absolutely agree, with the thrust of that sentence, not so sure about the ball however. Never quite that simple it would seem, there have been all sorts of training schemes here in the UK. Very few have worked and I would say that the only place they ever will is in the workplace. Many of our Technical Colleges aren't fit for purpose with far too much emphasis on catering as University feeders rather than providing vocational skills. That then leads on to the need for jobs and the industry to support them... I like to think that post-Brexit there will be a better climate for a renewed industrial base, in whatever form that might take. Certainly won't be overnight, so some hard times ahead, before the penny drops.

Renewed industrial base? Under the conservatives?
May has already said that won't happen it will be more money laundering and tax havens.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Kudoscycles]

It's not a case of being in denial of how bad things are or even of how good they were. Can't actually remember when that was truth be told.

It's more about how good they could be compared to how bad I think they are going to be in the future. Some might think I've been brain-washed, that does presuppose that I actually have one. Who knows, but I think I'm right and time will surely prove that to be the case.

My daughter doesn't agree with me either, but she went to University, and works for the NHS! I wonder who is the more likely to have been brain-washed!

Or brainy!!!!!

 

[Danidl]

Absolutely agree, with the thrust of that sentence, not so sure about the ball however. Never quite that simple it would seem, there have been all sorts of training schemes here in the UK. Very few have worked and I would say that the only place they ever will is in the workplace. Many of our Technical Colleges aren't fit for purpose with far too much emphasis on catering as University feeders rather than providing vocational skills. That then leads on to the need for jobs and the industry to support them... I like to think that post-Brexit there will be a better climate for a renewed industrial base, in whatever form that might take. Certainly won't be overnight, so some hard times ahead, before the penny drops.

My point about training etc was intended to refer to those civil servants and politicians engaging with their fellows in Europe. But since you raise the technical training for industry, a topic on which I have professional experience ...

The UK in a similar fashion to the major European economies had a large military with conscription. For a number of generations this provided an excellent vehicle for practical technical training. Radio, telecommunications, mechanical artificers, even truck drivers. With the transition to a professional army, with much smaller numbers were available. The UK also had a number of big companies who were in a position to provide that type of training.
Ireland never had that "advantage", so when the requirement to develop technical competence arose, there were only two options.. the traditional time served apprentice model , which produces excellent tradesmen in disciplines like electrical. Or to invent a new model .. regional technical colleges. Where the emphasis was on a mixture of practical skills and augmented by theoretical knowledge directly applicable. Our boast was that our two year certificate holders would be making a worthwhile contribution to the company within a fortnight. Now these were intensive programs about 900 class contact hours per year for the two years and the same again ,but at higher intensity for a third and final year, for the very high achievers.
If you want to see how successful that model was look at Ireland's economic growth from 1980 to 2004. And also the league tables winners of the international skills competitions , over those decades.
England, not Scotland , kept messing with its educational system renaming awards etc etc and rewarding participation not excellence..

 

[Danidl]

Danidl....Option 3 is one of the amendments to the repeal bill...tabled by an SNP guy....I did mention it in a previous posting.
As you say it may get no traction but who knows???
The UK is still in the driving seat for option 3,Lord Kerr who drafted Brexit has confirmed we can reverse it at any time up to March29.
KudosDave

As I have said a number of times. I believe that Lord Kerr is incorrect. Who knows? Nobody.. it has never been judged on in a court. But it is very difficult to see how your Lord Kerr can interpret the words differently. The text reads very clear.
This is one of those cases where I would be happy to be proven wrong...but..

 

[Kudoscycles]

Must be true then - it was in B/W, I read it a newspaper!

What is the point of this? We are leaving the Customs Union. However, we may well, probably will, negotiate a similar agreement.

Why should the EU want a free trade deal with the UK....the EU is busy putting up more protection against imports (anti-dumping duty on e-bikes!!!)
so why would it want a free trade deal with the UK. The lions share of EU exports to the UK is food and cars....we need EU food because we dont grow enough in the UK and our attitude to EU pickers and farm subsidies is not going to help. Dont forget that it is us who pay the tariffs so it is us who will pick up the bill.
All the vibes I am getting from these EU negotiations is that they want us to crash out. Liam Fox's FTD with China and India puts the fear of god into the EU....cheap product and on their doorstep.
I see no way we will get any equivalent to the customs union if we leave the EU.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

As I have said a number of times. I believe that Lord Kerr is incorrect. Who knows? Nobody.. it has never been judged on in a court. But it is very difficult to see how your Lord Kerr can interpret the words differently. The text reads very clear.
This is one of those cases where I would be happy to be proven wrong...but..

He drafted it,he should know but as you say it hasn't been tested.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

I see no way we will get any equivalent to the customs union if we leave the EU.

we can leave the EU and stay in the customs union.
that's what soft brexit is.

 

[oldtom]

Of all the tory politicians at Westminster, this one was selected above all others to represent the nation overseas:



Every single person who voted tory or even gives the slightest support to that party should be thoroughly ashamed.

Tom