Brexit, for once some facts.

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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And do you really believe the leavers will get the sort of change they want?
But you think you would under remain...which really is wishful thinking.
All these social.concerns you talk about have simply got worse over last 20 years so how can you assume next 20 years would see any difference ??
 
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oldtom

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oldgroaner

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What on earth are you talking about - give me a clue, or even a quote that I can follow. All comes across as rambling nonsense at the moment.
Make the effort to look back through the thread, it really isn't worth wasting my time to try to get through to you is it?
You won't hear any criticism of your fetishes over both the Conservatives and Brexit.
 

oldgroaner

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But you think you would under remain...which really is wishful thinking.
All these social.concerns you talk about have simply got worse over last 20 years so how can you assume next 20 years would see any difference ??
The EU didn't bring about all those social ills, and the legislation of the EU acted as a moderator even though you reject that notion.
The fact is the Government presided over the decline in fact made it worse.
So now you have the situation that these same idiots have complete power and you are expecting them to suddenly "see the light" and act in a completely opposite way to their previous policies?
How daft is that?
How are they going to change our infrastructure when they have already sold it off?
They Blight everything they touch,and now will make us all suffer to fuel their mad notions of Government. for the rich exploiting the poor.
 

oldgroaner

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From the Guardian this morning
"
Honda UK warns MPs of consequences of leaving EU customs union
Motor industry says threatened new tariffs could add £1,500 to price of an imported car, and make exports more expensive too
The devastating impact of a hard Brexit on the UK car industry was laid bare on Tuesday to MPs, who were told every 15 minutes of customs delays would cost some manufacturers up to £850,000 a year.

Presenting the industry’s most detailed evidence yet to the business select committee, Honda UK said it relied on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hour’s worth of parts being held on the production line.

The Japanese-owned company said it would take 18 months to set up new procedures and warehouses if Britain left the customs union but that, with 2m daily component movements, even minor delays at Dover and the Channel tunnel would force hundreds of its trucks to wait for the equivalent of 90 hours a day.

“Outside of the customs union, there is no such thing as a frictionless border,” said Honda’s government affairs manager, Patrick Keating.

“I wouldn’t say that the just-in-time manufacturing model wouldn’t work, but it would certainly be very challenging.”
"The industry also fears the impact of new immigration rules for EU nationals. Already 14% of Honda’s 3,500 to 4,000-strong Swindon workforce are from other EU countries, but this is growing fast: of the 600 extra workers hired to build new Civic model last year, 40% were EU workers, as are 30% of the staff at the company’s European HQ in Bracknell."
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
“Outside of the customs union, there is no such thing as a frictionless border,” said Honda’s government affairs manager, Patrick Keating.

“I wouldn’t say that the just-in-time manufacturing model wouldn’t work, but it would certainly be very challenging.”
"The industry also fears the impact of new immigration rules for EU nationals. Already 14% of Honda’s 3,500 to 4,000-strong Swindon workforce are from other EU countries, but this is growing fast: of the 600 extra workers hired to build new Civic model last year, 40% were EU workers, as are 30% of the staff at the company’s European HQ in Bracknell."
That sounds like stark reality from Honda and I guess the other carmakers have probably drawn the same conclusions while doing forward planning which takes account of the various scenarios.

Still, how can you put a price on sovereignty!

Tom
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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The EU didn't bring about all those social ills, and the legislation of the EU acted as a moderator even though you reject that notion.
The fact is the Government presided over the decline in fact made it worse.
So now you have the situation that these same idiots have complete power and you are expecting them to suddenly "see the light" and act in a completely opposite way to their previous policies?
How daft is that?
How are they going to change our infrastructure when they have already sold it off?
They Blight everything they touch,and now will make us all suffer to fuel their mad notions of Government. for the rich exploiting the poor.
So please explain the machinery the EU has to alter any of that. I,m not arguing with you over our decline and its reasons, but all your criticisms are of the government, over which even by your own admission EU can only moderate. You have made the same mistake as so many remainers. Your assumption is that somehow, irrespective of government if we remain EU will help.
The real solution is to have a credible caring government in first place not needing your perceived moderation.

And the massive problem is nothing to do with EU we simply dont have a credible, caring government either in power or opposition. That is a completely different argument to in or out the EU and much more fundamental.

Like I,ve said so many times before, just assume we remain, would that reduce poverty gap,increase spending on NHS; social care; welfare, would it close the tax havens; would it alter situation with super rich, would it rid us of such as,Ashcroft, would it give fire fighters their pensions back, would it give us our pension retirement dates back , would it end zero hours contracts?...no ofcourse it wouldn't. All those have happened under EU moderation...EU is a toothless expensive tiger. Waste of time.
The only times EU has moderated is when
government of day allows it to.
 
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Danidl

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The meaningful vote should be....
1. Leave the EU with a good deal
2. In the event of a bad deal then crash out
3. In the event of a bad deal remain in the EU
Let parliament vote 3 ways before March 2019
KudosDave
Except this is all fantasy . The UK parliament may discuss with itself anything it likes, but in the context of Brexit is utterly irrelevant. Option 3 above is not on any table. Persisting with that as a belief is just as harmful as any of the other untruths. The assumption behind it based on an arrogance that the UK is still in the driving seat. It abrogated that when it sent it's letter last march..
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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So please explain the machinery the EU has to alter any of that. I,m not arguing with you over our decline and its reasons, but all your criticisms are of the government, over which even by your own admission EU can only moderate. You have made the same mistake as so many remainers. Your assumption is that somehow, irrespective of government if we remain EU will help.
The real solution is to have a credible caring government in first place not needing your perceived moderation.

And the massive problem is nothing to do with EU we simply dont have a credible, caring government either in power or opposition. That is a completely different argument to in or out the EU and much more fundamental.

Like I,ve said so many times before, just assume we remain, would that reduce poverty gap,increase spending on NHS; social care; welfare, would it close the tax havens; would it alter situation with super rich, would it rid us of such as,Ashcroft, would it give fire fighters their pensions back, would it give us our pension retirement dates back , would it end zero hours contracts?...no ofcourse it wouldn't. All those have happened under EU moderation...EU is a toothless expensive tiger. Waste of time.
The only times EU has moderated is when
government of day allows it to.
No Zlatan as usual you are completely wrong
The FT said this before the referendum
https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

More recently the CBI
http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/
And the EU is actually tightening it's grip on these financial swindles, which is why the Government wants out.

No matter how much you wriggle you can't escape the fact that things will not get better under the Conservatives who orchestrated the nations woes, and you reject the idea of Corbyn doing any better.
In other words your solution isn't one is it? just worsening the problem.
All you are doing is swopping one situation you are not happy with for another that will be far worse, in the hope of a miracle.
Daft thing to do!
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Except this is all fantasy . The UK parliament may discuss with itself anything it likes, but in the context of Brexit is utterly irrelevant. Option 3 above is not on any table. Persisting with that as a belief is just as harmful as any of the other untruths. The assumption behind it based on an arrogance that the UK is still in the driving seat. It abrogated that when it sent it's letter last march..
This is true! for the Brexiters this is the message

You Won

Now put your money where your mouth is and make it work
And/or suffer or enjoy the consequences.

Is any part of that hard to understand?
By the way I would hate to have that on MY conscience.
 

PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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This is true! for the Brexiters this is the message

You Won

Now put your money where your mouth is and make it work
And/or suffer or enjoy the consequences.

Is any part of that hard to understand?
By the way I would hate to have that on MY conscience.
No, it's quite clear. Why all the fuss? Let's get on with it for G**** sake!
 

Danidl

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Sep 29, 2016
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So please explain the machinery the EU has to alter any of that. I,m not arguing with you over our decline and its reasons, but all your criticisms are of the government, over which even by your own admission EU can only moderate. You have made the same mistake as so many remainers. Your assumption is that somehow, irrespective of government if we remain EU will help.
The real solution is to have a credible caring government in first place not needing your perceived moderation.

And the massive problem is nothing to do with EU we simply dont have a credible, caring government either in power or opposition. That is a completely different argument to in or out the EU and much more fundamental.
Zatlan, I can see from the trajectory of your postings in the longer term that you are coming towards a conclusion some of us had reached a long time ago...
The EU like all human organisations is imperfect. It is peopled by officials who come from national politics and national civil services, with their engrained national mindsets. But it is also a set of principles about ensuring fair play, and negotiation as the means of resolving disputes. It has a social agenda, about treating all the people of Europe as citizens with equal rights, and applying a gentle pressure of bringing them together ... The aim being to reduce nationalism as a destructive force and to promote greater internationalism within Europe. This means that it is sometimes very slow to make changes, as change is determined by the speed of the slowest member prepared to travel. The UK for any number of internal reasons, and possibly because it once had an empire and now commonwealth was very slow to buy into any of these social norms.
We now have a situation where prominent members of your cabinet are rejoicing and looking forward to opportunities of removing health and safety legislation , social protection and environmental protection once they are unfettered by EU norms.
The EU has had limited powers of persuasion, it can only use the power of its courts where a country renages on a commitment that it had previously agreed to adopt. Up to recently any country could cite vital national interest as a ground for derogation or deferring action. A case in point.. the UK is the only European country to retain the mile as the unit of distance.
The UK has traditionally underperformed in the EU , not due to any defect in the EU but because it never valued it's participation. The quality of representatives, it sent, their engagement , their acceptance of portfolios and the reporting of their performance back in the UK has been below par. If other countries send their a team and you send the substitutes , then when national interests are being negotiated, who is likely to have the better outcome.
The woes of the UK cannot be blamed on the EU.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Some people seem to have a talent for prose and this is one such example:

MAGIC MONEY TREE


We have a little money tree and it always bears

A slew of silver nutmegs and groans with golden pears.

A hard pressed nurse demanded is there some for me?

Oh no, no such thing as a magic money tree.


We policemen and firemen need numbers, we need pay.

Tough luck, no money tree, perhaps another day.

We high rise tenants need more cash to fireproof our towers.

That would be the councils’ fault; it’s certainly not ours.


Prison officers, what of them, they play a vital role.

Shake the tree with no result, more sackings and the dole.

Shake the branches: and let’s mend the potholes in our streets.

Oh no, we can’t afford the money for such treats.


And is there any cash to fund the NHS?

Well, as we sell it off, its cost is less and less.

In any case, insurance will make it hunky dory.

But a pre-existing illness creates another story.


But what if I’ve been paying insurance all along?

Well, that’s your own fault for living for so long.

It’s your responsibility, staying fit and strong

Quit smoking, drinking, eating, then you can’t go wrong.


We need more cash, we’re desperate, cannot feed our kids.

Can’t you shake that money tree or else we’re on the skids?

How ungrateful can you be, for we deserve more thanks.

Think of all the goodies at our wonderful food banks.


We know there is a money tree, but not where it may grow.

But who eats all the money? No-one seems to know.

Maybe I can help you there. Look hard and you will see

A staggering sum has just gone out to bribe the DUP.


Another Palace falling down, we’re really in the toils.

Let’s see what the money tree produces for the Royals.

A lot of work in here, they say, let’s go on the cadge.

We’ll double your allowance then, Cheers, mate, says Her Maj.


Finding money trees is hard, an arboreal conundrum.

The usual methods just don’t work, a waste of time and humdrum.

Here’s a clue, so gird your loins and shake your lazy bones:

The money trees are to be found in warm and tropic zones.


The money’s doing nothing there, dangling from the boughs.

Think what we could do at home, with what this cash allows.

If we’re down upon our luck and on the bottom bumping,

Let’s go to the money tree and do a spot of scrumping.


The money tree did little for the ninety five per cent.

The other five ate all its fruit: that’s where the money went.


My grateful thanks to the author.

Tom
 
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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No Zlatan as usual you are completely wrong
The FT said this before the refeendum
https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

More recently the CBI
http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/
http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/
And the EU is actually tightening it's grip on these financial swindles, whih is why the Government wants out.

No matter how much you wriggle you can't escape the fact that things will not get better under the Conservatives who orchestrated tha nations woes, and you reject Corbyn doing any better.

All you are doing is swopping one situation you are not happy with for another that will be far worse, in the hope of a miracle.
Daft thing to do!
I should have a re read of that first link OG. It says ICI and BL went with no help from EU and the company mentioned received money from Japan ( not EU) to invest. Japanese came for ( agreed) access to EU market and for cheap reliable labour..its hardly an endorsement for EU...its actually quite a balanced opinion, but would be from FT..
You still haven't answered
A) If EU is such a moderating influence why have we seen the issues listed.
B) What makes you think EU can or will change in future.
We have reversed roles here, I mentioned set of social problems, you counter it with EU saving a small portion of our ailing car industry, which was actually saved by Japanese. ( Should have been our government)
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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I should have a re read of that first link OG. It says ICI and BL went with no help from EU and the company mentioned received money from Japan ( not EU) to invest. Japanese came for ( agreed) access to EU market and for cheap reliable labour..its hardly an endorsement for EU...its actually quite a balanced opinion, but would be from FT..
You still haven't answered
A) If EU is such a moderating influence why have we seen the issues listed.
B) What makes you think EU can or will change in future.
We have reversed roles here, I mentioned set of social problems, you counter it with EU saving a small portion of our ailing car industry, which was actually saved by Japanese. ( Should have been our government)
The Foreign car makers wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the EU Market, would they?
I suggest you read Danidl's latest post.
 
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