Bosch bearings

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

That's correct, my supplying dealer said they no longer sell KTM bikes, so they directed me to a local dealer when I had the gear issue, and said if there were any problems for my dealer doing the work to contact them. As you were as close as my nearest dealer I thought it best all round to do the work a dealer would have done for the KTM brand myself, to save you having to credit them for the work. Helping to resolve the issue in the most economical way for you, and being just as convenient for me as going to a KTM dealer.

It wasn't actually more economical for us. A shimano hub is supposed to go back to the dealer, and they ship to Madison for fixing. Because it came to us, we shipped it, to Madison - which cost us courier work and time.

Had it been dealt with by the dealer in the correct manner we'd not even have known about it.

It isn't a dongle as such.

Its a device that alters the way the bike performs, a tuning device.

My question was to Martin, because I understand it that he will warranty the bikes he supplies,

every bike dealer HAS to warranty the bikes they supply. Thats normal behaviour and how your KTM warranty would have been handled had you bought it from an active dealer, and not on clearance via eBay.

including those with the dongles which he supplies. So whilst perhaps not a brand thing in the true sense, it's still a relevant question to buyers seeking support for their modified bikes.

Every dealer will have different policies on what they warranty for their customers, its then up to them what they fix in house and what they go to the brand about. I suspect if youd taken your KTM back to a dealer they'd have just replaced the bearing and billed you for the work - which is what we're offering to do.

Bosch don't actually say it will automatically void your warranty.

Yes, they do. I have it in writing from them.

I myself do not believe that because my bike goes a bit faster it has increased the wear on that bearing, I have not increased my cadence or pedal loading in any way, in fact as I've already said the loading on the bearing is actually much greater whilst trying to pedal above the assist speed, the soft pedalling that is done with the motor running produces a much lighter loading on that bearing.

I wonder what your personal view on the above is Col?

You're entitled to think that and if I do or do not agree with you is irrelevant. Because you bypassed the shop, you've essentially gone straight to Bosch. Bosch want people to buy their more powerful bikes, so if you buy a cheaper one and tune it up, they say its not designed to cope with the stress, so they won't warranty it. Its only like buying a Golf 2.0 GTI, and remapping it so its a s fast as the Golf R (same engine), and expecting VW to still cover you if you blew the engine.

Martin whilst not an importer like yourself does seem to offer much better support to his customers than that offered by KTM. It's a little ironic don't you think that a dealer tuning Bosch motors gets to be the centre of Bosch support in the UK.

your comparing apples and eggs. Martin runs a shop, we're a sales agency.

If you go to a KTM dealer you'll get just as good service as Martin offers. Just look at guys like eMotion, Electriying Cycles, OnBike, LEBC etc etc... all are great eBike dealers who sell KTM amongst other brands. Had you bought your bike off any of these guys you'd have got just as good service as your imagining you might get from Martin.

I have no doubt that had I bought a Haibike from Martin he would have supported me. Where as you seem more interested in defending Bosch who have supplied KTM with a sub-standard product, how about a bit of support and loyalty for the people who actually buy your bikes?

Had you bought your KTM off anyone other than eBay I'm sure you'd have had great service. The problem is you didn't. Try email Madison or Haibike direct and see if they let you visit and drop off your problem parts, because thats what we have done for you. We're not the same as a shop.

I'll defend Bosch or indeed any company who I feel are being fare. In this case Bosch do many things well and some things need improving. In this case you've worn out a bearing on a bike thats done thousands of miles and has been tuned to go faster. So I think its fare enough that they say its not a manufacturing fault and expect you to fix it. You've already found its possible to replace the bearing, and as I understand it Tom from our place is trying to source a bearing for you for the other side, I believe he even offer to fit it.

I think what's done it for me just, is seeing that massive new big bearing on the newer Bosch motor, and I'm feeling a bit hard done by, to be honest. Had my motor had that sized bearing I'd still be happily whizzing along on my KTM, but because they fitted a sub-standard one I'm left with a broken KTM bike.

Its not broken, your bearing has worn out and we've offered to fit a new one. Its still perfectly rideable and the work to fit it doesn't take long.

 

[Artstu]

It wasn't actually more economical for us. A shimano hub is supposed to go back to the dealer, and they ship to Madison for fixing. Because it came to us, we shipped it, to Madison - which cost us courier work and time.

Had it been dealt with by the dealer in the correct manner we'd not even have known about it.

So are you saying that in fixing a KTM bike all costs and labour incurred including returning faulty parts are covered by the dealer? or is it not the case that you credit the dealer for the work done as you have recently stated elsewhere on the forum?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

So are you saying that in fixing a KTM bike all costs and labour incurred including returning faulty parts are covered by the dealer? or is it not the case that you credit the dealer for the work done as you have recently stated elsewhere on the forum?

it depends.... on what the problem is. Madison look after all Shimano warranty in the UK, the bike brands themselves don't handle it and in 99% of cases don't see the products. In most cases with Shimano parts Madison don't cover shipping in warranty. Which is why we had to pay to ship it to them, because we were fulfilling the role of dealer for you. So just as its generally the responsibility of the customer to get the part back to the dealer, its the dealers responsibility to get the part back to the brand.

So yes in the case of the Nexus hub, Shimano don't pay for shipping so the dealer if they couldn't fix it would send it to Madison. So in the absence of a dealer we shipped it back for you.

When its a labour intensive job, for a KTM part - say something that just needs greasing or fixing inside a hub drive bike, there is a service sheet that dealers get with full instructions of how to do the work, and the amount they can claim from us for doing it. But this is how we work with KTM parts. Shimano / Rockshox / Sram / Bosch etc etc all have different systems and dealers are used to working with all these different systems.

Please keep in your mind, we're not a shop. I post on here trying to give you guys input from the big brand level to hopefully help give a different perspective on some issues and a bit of support.

 

[Artstu]

Thanks, as I said at the time I did really appreciate your help with the hub issue.

So these shipping costs come out of the profit a dealer makes on selling a bike? In which case all those dealers out there will be hoping none of their generation one Bosch bike customers do as much as 4,000 miles or have strong legs.

Perhaps Bosch will cover the shipping costs, where Shimano won't?
The issue of dealers that close or stop selling a brand seems unresolved here. Did you not say the brand would step in to cover the costs in such a situation?
Whilst I didn't pay the RRP for my bike, as you keep reminding me, M&P the dealer will I presume of paid you full price for the bikes, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't keep trying to treat me as a second class citizen. You received the same amount for my bike as anyone who paid full price, I was prepared for the long distance relationship with my supplying dealer, what I wasn't expecting was for them to stop dealing with KTM, that's not my fault.

 

[derf]

That's true, but some are more modular than others. On a typical Chinese bike,you can swap motors and controllers for different types and brands. The same with displays, throttles and sensors. Also, you can swap batteries for different types, sizes and brands. The bits are available from a large number of sources, and can typically be unplugged and swapped.The Bosch system has the sensors and controller integrated in the motor and there's no alternatives. There's also no alternatives to the battery and display, and even if yo can get replacements, you still need a dealer to set them up. I guess that the Panasonic and Yamaha systems are similar.

I'm thinking more about the guy with a broken bike that doesn't reside next door to a dealer he bought the bike from. Any person competent in basic electrics can fix a Chinese bike, but for a European one, you need special training, equipment and software, so if you live in the back of beyond, you're forked.

Think about the guy that wanted a new display for his Bosch bike. Even if he or his local bike shop could get one, it still wouldn't work without the special programming by a Bosch dealer, which they couldn't do without the bike (supposedly), so he had to send his bike a long way to get it fixed.

apologies for dredging up an old thread, but there is another difference - on the average Chinese pedelecs the electric may be usefully DIY, but all the components are shite (zoom brakes, crank arms made from regurgitated soap, rubbish tyres that shred in the presence of glass powder, etc), unless one is very unlucky a newish European pedelecs will survive and require routine maintenance.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Thanks, as I said at the time I did really appreciate your help with the hub issue.

So these shipping costs come out of the profit a dealer makes on selling a bike? In which case all those dealers out there will be hoping none of their generation one Bosch bike customers do as much as 4,000 miles or have strong legs.

yes, thats generally the case. Now if a KTM frame cracks, or something serious, we don't make the dealer pay for shipped back to Austria, our couriers collect it. So no cost for the dealer. I think Bosch do something similar because the cost of sending a battery back to Germany is pretty high. But for most brands with UK service centres, the shipping cost is the dealers responsibility, most of the time.

Perhaps Bosch will cover the shipping costs, where Shimano won't?

I think they probably do, but I'm not a dealer with an account with Bosch, so I'm not sure. We've never had to warranty anything with them so they've never collected or indeed we've never shipped anything back.

The issue of dealers that close or stop selling a brand seems unresolved here. Did you not say the brand would step in to cover the costs in such a situation?

Yes, and your case is a perfect example, we're dealing with you cos the dealer you bought from isn't capable. If the dealer had simply stopped doing the brand, your contract is still with them, so if they are still trading they have to help you. If they have ceased trading any brand, us included would try to find a local dealer to help you, and we'd credit or support them, or as we are in your case we'd do it direct.

Whilst I didn't pay the RRP for my bike, as you keep reminding me, M&P the dealer will I presume of paid you full price for the bikes, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't keep trying to treat me as a second class citizen. You received the same amount for my bike as anyone who paid full price, I was prepared for the long distance relationship with my supplying dealer, what I wasn't expecting was for them to stop dealing with KTM, that's not my fault.

Fair point and I'm sorry. But yes, you should still be dealing with M&P, even though they have stopped doing KTM, they are still trading - us helping you is because I know for you and them sorting this out would be a nightmare, so we're trying to make it easier for everyone - except us actually.

By buying on eBay, I'm not trying to suggest your a second class citizen but you have missed out the dealer bit of the supply chain, and its them that should be looking after you as that's their role in the supply chain. You'd be shocked at how little we make per bike... ie by doing the work and couier of your hub and me replying to you messages on here about the bearings we've already made a loss on that bike sale. M&P still made the cash out of the sale and they've walked away providing no service. Hence why we stopped supplying them.

 

[Artstu]

ie by doing the work and couier of your hub and me replying to you messages on here about the bearings we've already made a loss on that bike sale.

I did not realise that in doing that for me it would have cost you money. Given that the only other option would have been to send my wheel to M&P I'd have been prepared to pay the shipping costs. So thank you again for helping me in that instance.

Don't confuse protracted debates that you have engaged with on here, with actually dealing with my claim. Tom is the only person I've had official contact with, just three or four emails.

Now you could just have sent my Bosch motor back to Bosch at what you've just said is probably no cost to yourself. I'd have dropped it off with you, if you'd asked I'd have even boxed it for you. So that would have been one initial reply to my first email, one to confirm when I could drop it off, then one more to tell me when to collect.

My problem would have been resolved quickly and efficiently and I'd have been singing the praises of KTM again and busy racking up another 4,000 miles on my KTM bike.

This thread wouldn't be here, along with all the negative KTM PR. What with the liability thread and this one KTM and e-bikes in general have started to leave a very sour taste in my mouth, the fun of e-bikes has all but been sucked out for me. I shall probably return to normal cycling, where I'll be able to cruise along at 20 to 30 mph without a worry.

 

[derf]

I did not realise that in doing that for me it would have cost you money. Given that the only other option would have been to send my wheel to M&P I'd have been prepared to pay the shipping costs. So thank you again for helping me in that instance.

Don't confuse protracted debates that you have engaged with on here, with actually dealing with my claim. Tom is the only person I've had official contact with, just three or four emails.

Now you could just have sent my Bosch motor back to Bosch at what you've just said is probably no cost to yourself. I'd have dropped it off with you, if you'd asked I'd have even boxed it for you. So that would have been one initial reply to my first email, one to confirm when I could drop it off, then one more to tell me when to collect.

My problem would have been resolved quickly and efficiently and I'd have been singing the praises of KTM again and busy racking up another 4,000 miles on my KTM bike.

This thread wouldn't be here, along with all the negative KTM PR. What with the liability thread and this one KTM and e-bikes in general have started to leave a very sour taste in my mouth, the fun of e-bikes has all but been sucked out for me. I shall probably return to normal cycling, where I'll be able to cruise along at 20 to 30 mph without a worry.

curiously, I find myself in a very similar position than this, but with woosh (having had to consult a laywer, i'd rather not say anything more), BUT one positive outcome from it was realising that I may just be able to build my own pedelec - if you pick a good base bicycle and import, say a bpm2 from BMS the total cost can be as low as less than 4 to 5 hundred pounds, which might make a warranty less pivotal (and to a degree one might know what one is getting)

 

[Artstu]

BUT one positive outcome from it was realising that I may just be able to build my own pedelec - if you pick a good base bicycle and import, say a bpm2 from BMS the total cost can be as low as less than 4 to 5 hundred pounds, which might make a warranty less pivotal (and to a degree one might know what one is getting)

Yes in your case at that price point I'd also go the DIY route. You'll end up with a much better bike.

 

[trex]

curiously, I find myself in a very similar position than this, but with woosh (having had to consult a laywer, i'd rather not say anything more), BUT one positive outcome from it was realising that I may just be able to build my own pedelec - if you pick a good base bicycle and import, say a bpm2 from BMS the total cost can be as low as less than 4 to 5 hundred pounds, which might make a warranty less pivotal (and to a degree one might know what one is getting)

what is your problem with woosh? I thought you sorted out the pedelec sensor?

 

[derf]

Yes in your case at that price point I'd also go the DIY route. You'll end up with a much better bike.

yes, I have a kalkhoff as well, one thing about a less expensive bike is that it may be less worrying to own.

 

[derf]

yes, I have a kalkhoff as well, one thing about a less expensive bike is that it may be less worrying to own.

if one builds it oneself I think..

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I did not realise that in doing that for me it would have cost you money. Given that the only other option would have been to send my wheel to M&P I'd have been prepared to pay the shipping costs. So thank you again for helping me in that instance.

no problem at all, its part of what we're trying to do to help people. In all honestly we should have foreseen the problems with M&P and not sold them bikes in the first place. They have been nothing but trouble, and its lesson we learnt very on in our dealing with KTM. That mistake won't be repeated.

Don't confuse protracted debates that you have engaged with on here, with actually dealing with my claim. Tom is the only person I've had official contact with, just three or four emails.

No thats cool. I fully appreciate that I've put our brands head above the wall by coming on here, so as part of that, I'll try to respond to any KTM based discussions, or even ones where a brands viewpoint might help people understand things.

Now you could just have sent my Bosch motor back to Bosch at what you've just said is probably no cost to yourself. I'd have dropped it off with you, if you'd asked I'd have even boxed it for you. So that would have been one initial reply to my first email, one to confirm when I could drop it off, then one more to tell me when to collect.

Yes, but if Bosch had collected it, plugged it into their diagnostics they could problem have identified that it had been tuned, so they would have just sent it back and billed us for shipping both ways, or possibly just binned it - which could quickly add up to a LOT of money for euroshipping of dangerous goods. So we had to check a few things first, for your benefit and now with the creation of this thread - a lot of peoples benefit. So whilst I've been at EuroBike we've all been trying to see if you really did need a new drive, or if the old drive could be taken apart and the bearing replaced. So we were working on getting you a super cheap price on a drive and also finding out if the bearing could be simply replaced.

We discovered that the bearing could be replaced, and I believe you discovered this at about the same time, we're just now working together to source you one of the bearings.

My problem would have been resolved quickly and efficiently and I'd have been singing the praises of KTM again and busy racking up another 4,000 miles on my KTM bike.

This thread wouldn't be here, along with all the negative KTM PR. What with the liability thread and this one KTM and e-bikes in general have started to leave a very sour taste in my mouth, the fun of e-bikes has all but been sucked out for me. I shall probably return to normal cycling, where I'll be able to cruise along at 20 to 30 mph without a worry.

I can appreciate why you might think this... but I promise you my discussion about liability could well have highlighted something to even just one person meaning they take out personal liabilty insurance - so could save them thousands and thousands of pounds. I think at least a few people learnt something, so there was a point to it and promoting KTM wasn't the point. I've learnt a lot about the type of companies that currently sell S Class bikes and dongles So it served two purposes.

To be honest the statement above actually pleases me. I'd hate to have heard about you being involved in an accident on your illegally assisted eBike, and if you're fit an able enough now to use a normal bike for leisure pursuits now thats great news, and I'm glad the eBike has helped you get to that point.

 

[derf]

o

no problem at all, its part of what we're trying to do to help people. In all honestly we should have foreseen the problems with M&P and not sold them bikes in the first place. They have been nothing but trouble, and its lesson we learnt very on in our dealing with KTM. That mistake won't be repeated.



No thats cool. I fully appreciate that I've put our brands head above the wall by coming on here, so as part of that, I'll try to respond to any KTM based discussions, or even ones where a brands viewpoint might help people understand things.



Yes, but if Bosch had collected it, plugged it into their diagnostics they could problem have identified that it had been tuned, so they would have just sent it back and billed us for shipping both ways, or possibly just binned it - which could quickly add up to a LOT of money for euroshipping of dangerous goods. So we had to check a few things first, for your benefit and now with the creation of this thread - a lot of peoples benefit. So whilst I've been at EuroBike we've all been trying to see if you really did need a new drive, or if the old drive could be taken apart and the bearing replaced. So we were working on getting you a super cheap price on a drive and also finding out if the bearing could be simply replaced.

We discovered that the bearing could be replaced, and I believe you discovered this at about the same time, we're just now working together to source you one of the bearings.



I can appreciate why you might think this... but I promise you my discussion about liability could well have highlighted something to even just one person meaning they take out personal liabilty insurance - so could save them thousands and thousands of pounds. I think at least a few people learnt something, so there was a point to it and promoting KTM wasn't the point. I've learnt a lot about the type of companies that currently sell S Class bikes and dongles So it served two purposes.

To be honest the statement above actually pleases me. I'd hate to have heard about you being involved in an accident on your illegally assisted eBike, and if you're fit an able enough now to use a normal bike for leisure pursuits now thats great news, and I'm glad the eBike has helped you get to that point.

building ones own bike might also mean not having to read loads of spin...

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

o

building ones own bike might also mean not having to read loads of spin...

now I'm going to take issue at that because I hate spin.

so here are the facts behind the statement so you can see its not spin.

M&P Cycles used to be a HUGE bike shop in the 90s, I remember because I used to buy from them for my mountain bike. They sold the cycle shop part of their business and it became Tredz / Wheelies. M&P just focused on motorbikes. In 2011/12 time there was a big fire and M&P lost everything, and had to start again. The owner was I think looking to get back into cycling so approached us about being a KTM dealer. His logic was that as the motorbike customers already came to his destination store, KTM would be a good brand of bike for them to look at. So he ordered 20 bikes to stock out the KTM part of his new bike shop. 6 months later his bike shop "idea" had gone out the window as he's got a Harley dealership. We think he was trying to wind up another KTM dealer so rather than let us collect the bike, he insisted on putting them on eBay and selling them at pretty much a loss.

And if you build your own bike, its still a sum of components which have to be sourced from somewhere, so exactly the same as a bike - you'll just have loads of suppliers - not just one, so potentially more trouble. Unless you plan on manufacturing all the components yourself!

 

[trex]

derf is buying a BPM2 kit from bmsbattery.com - his future problem is warranty and support rather than spin because there isn't any.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

surely on an eBike the one thing you do want is a bit of spin

 

[derf]

now I'm going to take issue at that because I hate spin.

so here are the facts behind the statement so you can see its not spin.

M&P Cycles used to be a HUGE bike shop in the 90s, I remember because I used to buy from them for my mountain bike. They sold the cycle shop part of their business and it became Tredz / Wheelies. M&P just focused on motorbikes. In 2011/12 time there was a big fire and M&P lost everything, and had to start again. The owner was I think looking to get back into cycling so approached us about being a KTM dealer. His logic was that as the motorbike customers already came to his destination store, KTM would be a good brand of bike for them to look at. So he ordered 20 bikes to stock out the KTM part of his new bike shop. 6 months later his bike shop "idea" had gone out the window as he's got a Harley dealership. We think he was trying to wind up another KTM dealer so rather than let us collect the bike, he insisted on putting them on eBay and selling them at pretty much a loss.

And if you build your own bike, its still a sum of components which have to be sourced from somewhere, so exactly the same as a bike - you'll just have loads of suppliers - not just one, so potentially more trouble. Unless you plan on manufacturing all the components yourself!

but one is sourcing the compoonents oneself, from the point of view of owning it (not making profit), so not the cheapest possible crap (that seem to occupy trex's consciousness so much, i wonder why..), but a decent basic bike with something like a bpm2 (at half the cost of . it doesnt take too much to establish the quality of something like a bafang bpm. frankly, though, the joy of not having to take part in this kinf of parading trumps it all..

 

[trex]

what is it about? I am all for building your own bike. You get the best of the technology to suit your needs, you know your bike inside out and it's cheaper than buying ready made. The only difference between my view and other members' like d8veh is the motor technology. I think crank drives like the 8Fun BBS01 18A 350W are way better than the BPMs.

 

[SRS]

I hope the conclusion is not: worn bottom bracket on a Bosch bike = new motor.

Bottom brackets wear out on all bikes, so it ought to be a reasonably easy part to replace.

I have not followed this entire thread but would assume that Bosch do not warrant consumables.

Bottom brackets are and always have been classed as consumables. All bearings have a finite life and bottom brackets do get hammered.

My Haibike clocked 5000 miles yesterday. No signs of bearing play as yet.

As and when the play arrives, and it will, I would expect any Bosch dealer to hold these parts in stock. After all that is what the dealers are there for.

What I need is someone to publish a Haynes manual type of book along with associated parts list and numbers. I can then see what I have purchased.

My bike is used amongst other things for daily commuting. To leave it for days at a dealer is no use to me. If I can quickly repair myself, this would be my option.