Bike Europe draws attention to illegal tuning kits

[Stalkingcat]

and I'm afraid at £1000, that bike doesn't look very good value compared to what you can buy in the shops, which comes with safety certification and back up, and can be used legally

Errrm what? you obviously don't know much about this subject

 

[trex]

...
2) if he's trade, clearly he is... he should be paying the fees and declaring himself as such on here.
...

that's pretty mean. Why do you have to make this point? he's not selling anything on this forum, unlike morphix.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Errrm what? you obviously don't know much about this subject

so of all the points I made about you not understanding the law and selling and testing illegal prototypes in the public access forest, thats the one point you've replied to?? nice.

FYI, we deal with 300+ retailers in the UK, and we've sold 2000 eBikes to them in the past 4 months. Lots of these sell our brands and lots others. So whilst I don't home build illegal bikes, I'm afraid I do know lots about the subject of selling eBikes and of what sells for how much, and why the prices are set where they are.

edit... just seen you've replied in a number of separate post, none of which make much sense.

that's pretty mean. Why do you have to make this point? he's not selling anything on this forum, unlike morphix.

Its not mean, its just a fact. You don't have to be "selling on the forum" to be trade.

and just because someone else does it doesn't mean it ok

 

[trex]

I actually believe that there is a commercial future in what members like stalkingcat are trying to achieve, a flexible e-bike/elmoto. The route to type approval is not that onerous, provided that the product will sell in sufficient number - about 100+.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Oh dear, how many times do i have to explain this?
The current hog powered bike that Im building will be road registered, taxed and insured. I will be able to ride up on the road up to my local privatly owed motorcross track and have a few hours fun before riding it back home.

So at the moment - its not... and the bikes you've been selling aren't either.

If you manage to make this bike road legal, then thats great. But just so you're clear in the eyes of the law you'll have turned it from an MX bike, into a road legal enduro bike.

If you wish to come up the the track in order to make a citizens arrest to all the kids having a day of run in a safe environment then please feel free.

You've missed my point totally. I'm not going to arrest you, I was just using you as a classic example of someone who doesn't understand the law, and the fact that you're selling bikes to people makes this even more scary. Have you had a chat with citizens advice about your personal liability risk of selling these bikes to the public. I'd suggest they are worth a visit.

When did I state that the bike is for use in forests?
My understanding of 'off road' has always meant either an enduro or mx track.

So stop saying "offroad" then, and say "private land with no public access" off-road has clear implications as a description, and you yourself have said you're riding it around the forest and think its legal, and that the MX track is closed.

Also I know lots of MX tracks and they're is no way they'd let you ride a home made eBike on their tracks, they are massively liable if something went wrong and you were involved in an accident with another user. So I think you'll find that if you tried to use a track legally, you'd be asked to leave.

 

[Stalkingcat]

FYI, we deal with 300+ retailers in the UK, and we've sold 2000 eBikes to them in the past 4 months. Lots of these sell our brands and lots others. So whilst I don't home build illegal bikes, I'm afraid I do know lots about the subject of selling eBikes

Exactly my point, you are a sales man.

whilst I don't home build illegal bikes

Its not the bike that's illegal, it becomes illegal if used where its not meant to be.

 

[Stalkingcat]

You dragged me here from a 5wk+ thread with this below


I'm afraid statements like this are very common on here. So I'm afraid my concern is not arrogance it's one based on reading lots of post on here that are simply wrong.

Eg

Exactly, please no comments about legalities!! we know that its illegal to take powerful builds on roads but still fun to build them and blast off road

My personal off roading is done around a fenced off piece of privately owned land, where people have been riding for decades. Or on purposly built long run enduro tracks.[/QUOTE]

 

[Stalkingcat]

So stop saying "offroad" then, and say "private land with no public access"

No, i don't want to, that's how off road bikes have been described for years and i don't have to change my wording. Its up to each individual to understand the law and make their own choices. I will advice if asked. If every time I wanted to describe an offroad bike, i had to say 'a bike for use on private land with no public access' I think my brain would melt at how anal i've become.
Are you saying that every car that is sold has to have stickers all over it saying 'not for use on pavements'
Unfortunately that is somewhat how things are going

 

[Stalkingcat]

Also I know lots of MX tracks and they're is no way they'd let you ride a home made eBike on their tracks, they are massively liable if something went wrong and you were involved in an accident with another user. So I think you'll find that if you tried to use a track legally, you'd be asked to leave

Electric MX tracks are opening up around the country. My wish is to make a type approved bike which can be used legally on road and to then reopen my local track as electric.
Lots of the kids who used to have something to occupy their time, riding at the wkends, are now bored throwing stones through windows. That's unfortunately the downside of fuddy duddies campaigning to close down a track because of noise and then going on to complain about the youth of today.

 

[mike killay]

So, after all your abrasiveness and rudeness, it turns out that you are not really interested in pedelecs at all!

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

No, i don't want to, that's how off road bikes have been described for years and i don't have to change my wording.

ok, we're going round in circles. But I would say... you're talking about how "off-road motorbikes" have been described for year, but you're selling offroad pedal cycles... and there is a massive difference in the way there terms are understood in the two different markets I know because I've worked in both sectors for years.

also f.y.i - I'm not really "just" a salesman - I'm the director of a company selling bikes into the UK eBike market. As such I've done a lot more research into risk and liability of selling and using eBikes in the UK that you clearly have.

I'm on here to

a) learn, because there are a lot of well educated, experienced engineers and eBike enthusiasts who have valuable contributions to make about a whole host of topics including the legalities of their use.

b) help, because as a trade member there is lots I can add to debates and discussions I hope.

You're correct about electric MX tracks opening up, but I stand by the fact that you need to do a lot more research into the things you're proposing, because there are lots of holes in your plans - not least the fact that they won't let you take pedal bikes onto a MX track (electric or not), electric assist or not. If you doubt be, check with one of the current electric MX tracks to see if they'd be happy with your plan.

Just because you want it to happen, doesn't mean it can, or even should happen.

 

[trex]

So, after all your abrasiveness and rudeness, it turns out that you are not really interested in pedelecs at all!

the vboxx in his new prototype is a very expensive piece of hardware to enable an elmoto to be pedalled like an e-bike. You don't see e-bike/elmoto refined to this level anywhere else than the Stealth Bomber.

 

[flecc]

I have been researching for several weeks - it seems that the 25 kmh limit was pushed on the rest of the EU by the country which has the most bicycles. While 25 kmh is logical for them it isn't as logical when you live where I do. That is typical of lots of EU norms: they are dumbed down to the lowest denominator. The current EU pedelec law is similar to limiting cars to 50 kmh everywhere, including motorways. Now wouldn't that raise lots of hackles!

I see two very large misunderstandings here Tony.

Having safety law set at the lowest common denominator isn't particularly an EU practice, it's the necessary norm worldwide and has long been so. The reason is obvious, if set higher, then all those who don't meet that standard are free to cause additional safety problems. For many like yourself the law isn't convenient, we all suffer that with numerous laws, but human variation leaves no other viable option.

The second misunderstanding is the comparison with cars, a very common one in here. Car drivers are tested for certain minimum standards of proficiency, pedelec riders are not. That is why the car standards bar can be set higher, to match the minimum test standard, not the lowest common denominator. That isn't unfair since a pedelec rider can pass a test to ride something more powerful and/or faster, setting the bar higher for themselves. And as you've posted yourself, France where you are will be allowing you to have the S class from 2017, allowing 45 kph.

It's also unfair to blame the Dutch alone for the 25 kph assist speed limit. Before they brought that influence to bear, Japan had a 25 kph and 250 watt limit which were much harsher since they required power to phase down linearly from 15 kph. That meant power was halved by 19 kph. And in the UK the law was even worse, since long before the Dutch and Japanese laws, we had set the maximum assist speed to 12 mph (19kph) and limited power to 200 watts. Therefore the EU had examples from elsewhere which made the Dutch suggestion more middle of the road than extreme.

Since other countries have been following those examples and adopting EU lookalike law, Australia for example and China phasing it in, the prospects for change are getting much smaller.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Here's a picture of the Stromer so that you can see what a legal high powered electric bike looks like. You don't have to have a throttle only moped. This is for people that don't want that. You can buy it from the Stromer shop with a registration just like you buy a Honda Fireblade or a Honda Vision scooter. You can see it has a bracket for a number plate on the back. If I had one, I'd probably fit the number plate with quick release fittings so that I could park it on the pavement or in the shopping centre. Nobody would know or care, since it just looks like a sturdily built bicycle. It has two lights on the front. A small spotlight type cycle light and a rather nice LED driving light set into the the headstock around the badge. Sorry about the sideways pictures. I don't know why it's done that.

 

[flecc]

I actually believe that there is a commercial future in what members like stalkingcat are trying to achieve, a flexible e-bike/elmoto. The route to type approval is not that onerous, provided that the product will sell in sufficient number - about 100+.

I'm certainly not against StalkingCat doing this Trex, I just struggle to see the purpose.Why would anyone want to add around 5% or less power by pedalling an up to 60 mph machine with a weight of around 70 kilos as he's quoted?

And can you honestly think type approval isn't onerous for such a machine? I think the requirements for a machine with that sort of speed capability would soon push the weight much higher, further outside cycling viability.
.

 

[trex]

cwah's requirements for a two seater elmoto in London is typical. I believe there is a market for this sort of bikes, but selling price has to be competitive against similar ICE machines. I think stalkingcat's prototype will be around 35-45kgs, if he ever manages to work with the motor from israel Revolt. His will be lighter, more powerful than this one and pedallable:

example of elmoto (Stuttgart):

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It doesn't matter why they want to do it. We want them to have a choice. Why are there so many selfish people that want everybody else to conform to the the way they want something? This country shouldn't be like communist China or North Korea, where everybody has to wear the same clothes. That's what you're leading us to.

It's the same with the Stromer. It's legal. People can buy it and use it without offending anybody if they want, even if you don't want or like it.

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the response and photos d8veh, I'd already seen the Stromer so knew it was a nice machine and basically an S class e-bike.

But in the UK it has all the disadvantages I mentioned and anyone pretending it was a ordinary e-bike would soon come unstuck. Traffic officers are hot on registered light two wheelers so to repeat, at the first sign of a cycle-helmeted rider of a number plated machine would stop and book the rider.

And any zealous parking official spotting a number plated machine in a bike rack on the pavement would also book it.

Life with one could soon get unpleasant. I'm not against it, but I'm also not against people being properly informed of the disadvantages. In the UK, like it or not, it's a moped L1e-B, it is not an e-bike or S class bike.
.

 

[shemozzle999]

Electric MX tracks are opening up around the country. My wish is to make a type approved bike which can be used legally on road and to then reopen my local track as electric.
Lots of the kids who used to have something to occupy their time, riding at the wkends, are now bored throwing stones through windows. That's unfortunately the downside of fuddy duddies campaigning to close down a track because of noise and then going on to complain about the youth of today.

I have no problem in what you are trying to achieve if it is developed responsibly.

http://www.e-scape.org.uk/gallery

Unfortunately as in other areas of sport it is those that do not obey the rules that cause the problems for the many i.e. a few snow boarders acting irresponsibly causing extra restrictions to be applied on ski slopes and model aircraft fliers refusing to silence their motors causing closure of flying sites.

 

[JohnCade]

Thanks for the response and photos d8veh, I'd already seen the Stromer so knew it was a nice machine and basically an S class e-bike.

But in the UK it has all the disadvantages I mentioned and anyone pretending it was a ordinary e-bike would soon come unstuck. Traffic officers are hot on registered light two wheelers so to repeat, at the first sign of a cycle-helmeted rider of a number plated machine would stop and book the rider.

And any zealous parking official spotting a number plated machine in a bike rack on the pavement would also book it.

Life with one could soon get unpleasant. I'm not against it, but I'm also not against people being properly informed of the disadvantages. In the UK, like it or not, it's a moped L1e-B, it is not an e-bike or S class bike.
.

So is the bike a legal e moped then, needing helmet and insurance, and some form of registration even if it's free of road tax? I'm a bit confused as to how it differs in practise from an S pedelec in that case. Since we are always being told we will never get them here.