BH Emotion serious problems

[flecc]

Regarding margins, lets just say it is nowhere near 50%. This is a misconception I am sure all dealers would love to be able to work to that margin but it would just make e bikes even more expensive.

It can be for those who import and supply direct though, and is for at least one case I know of. That's not 50% of the final selling price with VAT though, it's a doubling of the UK landed price to which VAT is applied, so just under 43% of the retail selling price.

 

[trex]

why do I have this sinking feeling that when it comes to after sale, the whole distribution channels simply don't compare favourably against the direct importers' despite higher costs to the brands and customers?
it does not cost much more to send a wheel from Spain to Sunderland than from Salford to Sunderland and everyone can read and write English or google translate so why such a big deal to contact the brands directly for warranty? all you need is to add into the warranty some extra clause to enable this.

 

[103Alex1]

And I was talking about best for this customer. BH it appears are now trying to work direct from Spain, do you think the dealer is going to be getting good service from a company trying to look after an entire European dealer work from one office... It doesn't work, many have tried it in an attempt to save money and it doesn't work.

.... in which case they really have no right to be asking 2 to 2 and a half grand for their bikes. Ex-demos being offered as second hand bikes without warranty speaks volumes. I test rode a BH bike and whilst I liked the performance I have to confess I had little to no confidence it would 'last the year' (let alone the course) and did not follow it up. Perhaps unfairly I was also put off by the large number of chain store "always a sale at Allied Carpets" bikes in their non-eBike range with throwaway components. I had a gut feeling that a company with a core business in the penny-pinching market space was likely to impart at least some of that into their eBikes. Which would be fine if they were competing in the 'Kudos' space price-wise, but not in the B&M space !

As far as brands are concerned, if they behave as nothing more than 'badging middlemen' without proper stocks of spares and everything passed down to individual component manufacturers then branding means absolutely nothing. The big losers here are the customers. Wooed into parting with crazy amounts of money to keep a bunch of middlemen in business who run for the hills and point fingers at each other the minute something goes wrong, but are all too happy to crow from the rooftops about how much better their bikes (assembled from other peoples' stuff) are than their competitors.

I know all about the costs of running businesses in the UK. So when it transpires that we are all paying to incorporate retailers and distributors into the equation (and increasing costs by hundreds if not over a thousand pounds a bike in many cases) - and then they are unable to provide the added value backup for whatever reason over even a 2 year period - the whole thing feels like one big con to the customer. And in many ways it is. This is so widespread nowadays people have simply adopted a throwaway "kettles and irons" attitude in response. But that requires throwaway prices and we are about as far from there as you can get with eBikes. This is the big problem really.

 

[Yamdude]

I've been following this thread with interest from the beginning...... and it seems to me the whole ebike industry needs a kick up its ****. Crap after sales, poor quality parts, non transferrable warranties, yet stupidly high prices on a lot of ebikes.
Its no wonder that after all the years ebikes have been around, its still only a very small number of people are buying them here in the UK. You only have to see how quiet this forum is to see what a small market ebikes are.
My main interest has always been motorcycles and I cant help comparing ebikes to them. With ebikes you don't seem to get value for money, and even worse there seems to be a big gamble with them.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

ok - this wasn't clear from your post to me, it appeared you were defending the system, not explaining it.



As i say, that's a vendors problem, rather than a consumer, if you need to add 25% to the price to hold stock of spares, or to negotiate an SLA on parts supply, or whatever you need to do, then do it.

the consumer suffering, whether or not thats the way it has worked for 20 years, doesn't really help to grow the ebike business, or the reputations of manufacturers.

(that said, again this isn't directed at you guys personally in any way)

either way this is an interesting thread for me, too often we do only see our perspective, and its good to see manufacturers giving their point of view - shame no retailers are doing the same. I do appreciate that the retailer can be the weak link in the chain (as can customer, vendor or distributor - but at least we customers have the excuse that this is our hobby, not our business)

(and its GREAT to see that people are changing warranties to show that they are prepared to support their products - kudos (no pun intended) for that)

I am defending the system, whilst also trying to explain it. But I am saying that if its taking two weeks to sort out, it's not working in these cases. However the system does work, it just doesn't work when either the shop or the problematic brands component or the bike brand don't sort it out.

In these two cases, the main problem is the dealer as far as I can work out, they should have sorted both problems within 3 working days, neither is complicated and neither needs more than a phone call to resolve.

The fact that the customers are feeling let down is as a direct result of poor service from their dealer, any problems with the dealers relationship with the distributor or any change in distribution patterns should not effect the end consumer.

And whilst the rose option has been mentioned.... What happens if you have a small problem with your bike? Are you going to ship it back to Germany everytime there is an issue? Much better to find a good retailer who knows their product and buy from a brand that has systems in place to support their dealers.

Having said that Bosch needs a uk service centre, until then any Bosch warranty work for any dealer with any brand, can take too long. But this is partly because they are growing faster than I think they expected.

So if you are buying any brands bike, ask the shop what procedures they have in place to keep you on the road if there is a problem with your bike.

 

[trex]

I've been following this thread with interest from the beginning...... and it seems to me the whole ebike industry needs a kick up its ****. Crap after sales, poor quality parts, non transferrable warranties, yet stupidly high prices on a lot of ebikes.
Its no wonder that after all the years ebikes have been around, its still only a very small number of people are buying them here in the UK. You only have to see how quiet this forum is to see what a small market ebikes are.
My main interest has always been motorcycles and I cant help comparing ebikes to them. With ebikes you don't seem to get value for money, and even worse there seems to be a big gamble with them.

hang on, all the advertisers on this forum are much better than this.

 

[flecc]

I've been following this thread with interest from the beginning...... and it seems to me the whole ebike industry needs a kick up its ****. Crap after sales, poor quality parts, non transferrable warranties, yet stupidly high prices on a lot of ebikes.
Its no wonder that after all the years ebikes have been around, its still only a very small number of people are buying them here in the UK. You only have to see how quiet this forum is to see what a small market ebikes are.
My main interest has always been motorcycles and I cant help comparing ebikes to them. With ebikes you don't seem to get value for money, and even worse there seems to be a big gamble with them.

All very true, but believe it or not, things are very much better now than they were as little as six years ago. Then it was often really, really bad.

At the core is that fact you've mentioned, e-bikes are such a tiny market in the UK.

 

[flecc]

Having said that Bosch needs a uk service centre, until then any Bosch warranty work for any dealer with any brand, can take too long.

Service centres in other countries can be ok if there is a bike shop dealer network, Giant have long serviced the whole of Europe including the UK from their Netherlands base, both for normal and electric bikes. Only slightly slow in responding, they give strong dealer support to solve any problems, including technical instructions and tools.

SRAM have also now set up a Europe wide service centre at their former Sachs factory in Germany which will look after the UK through cycle dealers.

 

[EddiePJ]

I'll never buy another BH bike. - My next purchase will either be a home build (as at least then i have only myself to blame) or i will pay much much more attention to after sales service as a major aspect of purchase decision - tbh i approached my ebike purchase as if i was buying a bike, believing that a combination of a well stocked reseller, trusted distributor and global big bike manufacturer would adequately support a premium product - sadly this doesn't seem to be the case in the ebike world.

Up until recently I had in mind to buy a Neo Race springtime next year. That now won't be happening.

Not because I don't like the bike, I just don't see the point of buying one if there is no back up when things inevitably go wrong.

Like you I shall either be making my own, or searching elsewhere. Both options aren't ideal, as I don't want the bike to look like an e-bike, which is something that BH score at. The other option is to find a cheap used one, and just accept that any problems are down to me sort out, which I don't have an issue about doing. The current issue is buying a new product and wrongly believing that support is there when it isn't. To that extent, it leaves a bitter taste.

I'm now going to contact the shop to get the bike back, and being fair to the shop they had already suggested this in the event that BH didn't get their act together. That aspect is annoying due to mileage and time making needless extra journeys.

I'd also like to see the BH importer come onto this thread to explain why the after sales support is non existent.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

We offer a loan bike to people who have a warranty issue. This overcomes issues if they can not be resolved quickly. In terms of Bosch we keep most parts ourselves. Although the turnaround from Europe is normally 2-3 days once payment in advance by bank transfer has been recieved (which sometimes takes longer than delivery).

However one distributer we deal with may now be keeping UK stock of Bosch parts to cover any warranty issues. My opinion is a distributer of Bosch bikes should stock spare parts themselves and not leave it to dealers to do this. Our other non Bosch brands do this. Otherwise dealers may conclude they are better importing direct especially if they can get a better price and a decent range of bikes.

 

[ghouluk]

We offer a loan bike to people who have a warranty issue. This overcomes issues if they can not be resolved quickly. In terms of Bosch we keep most parts ourselves. Although the turnaround from Europe is normally 2-3 days once payment in advance by bank transfer has been recieved (which sometimes takes longer than delivery).

However one distributer we deal with may now be keeping UK stock of Bosch parts to cover any warranty issues. My opinion is a distributer of Bosch bikes should stock spare parts themselves and not leave it to dealers to do this. Our other non Bosch brands do this. Otherwise dealers may conclude they are better importing direct especially if they can get a better price and a decent range of bikes.

then don't be ashamed of a 35 or 50% margin, as long as its justified through value, i have no problem, and would prefer to buy from a retailer where possible ("our problem" support, impartial advice and access to test rides are worth significant money imho)

something i think is interesting that in my dealings and conversations (both online and in person) with the manufacturers (bh included) the people concerned in the UK are bike enthusiasts, and are keen to have a coffee and a natter about their (and others) bikes - while they have a product to sell, they almost seem to offer more independant advice that i'd expect from a retailer.

there are also good retailers on the site, again they seem to be the enthusiastic and knowledgable folks (martin from crank/e-bikes springs to mind, but i'm sure there are others, he just happens to be on my doorstep)

maybe d8veh should open a shop and we should all buy our bikes from him

to come back to topic and to be absolutely BH UK in my case have worked hard to solve problems (to be fair again even when the problem is not clearly their fault) but are loaded by poor quality components, ineffective back office order and supply, and poor fault management systems and technology.

( I also don't thinkthat BH are on the forum (the account called bh bikes or similar appears to be maxtrack who as i understand it no longer import/distribute))

All that said, again thats not my concern (though of course it has been my problem) I just wonder how many more e-bikes would sell if things were better.

I might have considered a kudos had they had the bike i wanted when i was buying, but i'd written off the wisper as being not the bike i wanted. If i'd carried on reading the forum, i would have made my selection from the vendors who contribute....haibike, ezee, wisper, kudos, juicy (sure i've forgotten some no offence meant) when you look at the brands they have access to, there is plenty of choice.

I'm also struggling to see the benefit of uk service centres or more specifically the problems with European ones, i source and supply globally, but particuarly across europe, and as above the costs and timescales are very similar (unless its a 12 hour site job)

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Agree great to have many experts on here both customers and businesses. No problem making 50% margin but at the moment it would push prices up too much so we all work to much smaller margins. Cost needs to reflect a realistic value.

I agree regarding test rides we normally suggest people try: crank drive, hub drive and bikes with both torque sensor and Rotation sensor. Peoples opinions normally change when they try an e bike and are amazed at how well they perform.

Key thing is that the customer gets back on the road asap.

Maxtrack will hopefully be rejoining e bike market soon, and I hope they do. Really nice people.
If all work together then all in the e bike business will benefit. New distributer web address BH UK - Fitness Equipment, Massage Chairs, Saunas

 

[flecc]

Maxtrack will hopefully be rejoining e bike market soon, and I hope they do. Really nice people.
If all work together then all in the e bike business will benefit. New distributer web address BH UK - Fitness Equipment, Massage Chairs, Saunas

That doesn't cover electric bikes though, the correct link is the one I gave above and repeat here:

BH bikes

In there select Easy Motion, that's what E-motion stands for, not a psychological state.

 

[ghouluk]

In there select Easy Motion, that's what E-motion stands for, not a psychological state.

dunno - i got pretty e-motional about the lack of easy motion on mine

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Hi Flecc

The link I had relates to new UK distributer (BHUK/AAML Ltd), exact link to bike page is below but also available via link I posted. Not much info on there at the moment so link you provided is better for bike spec etc but link provided does have the UK contact details on which might prove useful for some. I would imagine more information would be posted/added in due course or they may continue to link to BH's.com website

BH Bikes

 

[EddiePJ]

Maxtrack will hopefully be rejoining e bike market soon, and I hope they do. Really nice people.

I dealt with Andy M when I had the rear wheel bearing issue, and have to say that he couldn't had been more helpful.

I'm now getting confused about who is who and doing what.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

That is great to know and he is from new company so I am sure good back up will continue. I am still deciding whether we will continue to stock their bikes. Have just one model left and some great bikes coming out now. I really like the battery incoporation into the frame on the Neo's but do think both Panasonic and Bosch models are overpriced compared to others. Also like Moustache but again when you compare the spec they are not as well priced as other brands.

 

[Kudoscycles]

.... in which case they really have no right to be asking 2 to 2 and a half grand for their bikes. Ex-demos being offered as second hand bikes without warranty speaks volumes. I test rode a BH bike and whilst I liked the performance I have to confess I had little to no confidence it would 'last the year' (let alone the course) and did not follow it up. Perhaps unfairly I was also put off by the large number of chain store "always a sale at Allied Carpets" bikes in their non-eBike range with throwaway components. I had a gut feeling that a company with a core business in the penny-pinching market space was likely to impart at least some of that into their eBikes. Which would be fine if they were competing in the 'Kudos' space price-wise, but not in the B&M space !

As far as brands are concerned, if they behave as nothing more than 'badging middlemen' without proper stocks of spares and everything passed down to individual component manufacturers then branding means absolutely nothing. The big losers here are the customers. Wooed into parting with crazy amounts of money to keep a bunch of middlemen in business who run for the hills and point fingers at each other the minute something goes wrong, but are all too happy to crow from the rooftops about how much better their bikes (assembled from other peoples' stuff) are than their competitors.

I know all about the costs of running businesses in the UK. So when it transpires that we are all paying to incorporate retailers and distributors into the equation (and increasing costs by hundreds if not over a thousand pounds a bike in many cases) - and then they are unable to provide the added value backup for whatever reason over even a 2 year period - the whole thing feels like one big con to the customer. And in many ways it is. This is so widespread nowadays people have simply adopted a throwaway "kettles and irons" attitude in response. But that requires throwaway prices and we are about as far from there as you can get with eBikes. This is the big problem really.

Alex....I am sure that you did not mean to relate Kudos with penny pinching in your posting,it can be read ambigously....all the current Kudos models are specified not to a price but using parts which our experience has suggested have done well and eliminating problem components. That is not to say we have chosen 'top dollar'....for example I really like the look of Magura brakes but the Tektro-Auriga have worked well and I cannot justify twice the price on looks alone.
Kudos is busy rationalising our parts usage....all of the performance models use the same water bottle style battery,brakes are only 2 varients,the speed sensors same. It does mean that sometimes we cannot offer a bike for every customer but there are enough suppliers between us importers to offer most requirements.
Kudosdave

 

[Kudoscycles]

One of the problems of the bike industry,it applies to all bikes,is that they have become stupidly fashionable. The rate of change of new models is so rapid that the R&D cannot settle down and its so difficult to buy in decent volumes,the fear of having an out of date model in quantity is very real.
I must say it is nice to reorder for 2014 some models which,with minor improvements,are same as 2013,the manufacturer settles down,the volumes improve,the spares situation becomes easier,PDI staff become knowledgeable....our Secret,Tornado and Arriba models will be joined by some new varients but,at last,the basic specification is succesfull and settled. I must say that if my business centred on the Bosch motor with its constantly changing design and specification it would be a nightmare.
KudosDave

 

[RobF]

My bike wish list ended up with a Rose or a Grace, if the free post offer from Rose had come a little sooner I might still be riding a pedelec instead of the steam powered machine currently in use.
But a new bike is on order, delivery December.

Which bike are you having?

I hope it arrives on time.

Until the supply situation settles, I would be very wary of ordering anything with the Bosch motor.