BH Emotion serious problems

[RobF]

You guys are being far to nice to your dealers, you bought the bike off them, your contract is with them - they should sort it out.

In the case of the forks, the dealer should be going to the uk distributor for the forks, for them to be replaced.

If that's taking too long, they should replace the forks from their stock and wait for replacements from either BH or the fork brand themselves.

Different brands handle warranty in different ways, but generally the components will be looked after by the component brands, not the bike brand.

And it's the same with the wheel, the shop should be rebuilding it for you, and then they bill BH for the time.

I agree that is what should happen.

But bike dealers are prone to say: "Not our problem, mate, down to the manufacturer."

Then, like they are doing you a favour, they will agree to send the bit away leaving the customer off the road for weeks.

Realistically, there's nothing the customer can do if the dealer really digs his heels in.

The dealer knows this, which is why he does it.

 

[trex]

be careful of grey imports. Ask before you hand over the dosh.

 

[EddiePJ]

Then, like they are doing you a favour, they will agree to send the bit away leaving the customer off the road for weeks.

I was thinking about this very thing late last night as you do, and worked out that with the fork issue and the rear wheel bearing failure, the bike has been off the road for one month out of my four month ownership period.

25% of down time is very high by anyone's standard.

I guess that BH Emotion think that they can afford the potential bad publicity. I'm also not even currently sure who the importer actually is, as I thought that it had just recently changed.

 

[flecc]

I guess that BH Emotion think that they can afford the potential bad publicity. I'm also not even currently sure who the importer actually is, as I thought that it had just recently changed.

It will be BH themselves in the UK now, here's the website

Of course they are an old established Spanish bike manufacturer, and knowing what an economic and political mess Spain is in currently, maybe that pervades companies as well

 

[Kudoscycles]

Haha...That's an impossible question to answer really Trex.
At some point or another they have ALL had me banging my head against a wall asking"why is it so damn hard just to sell bikes?!"
My biggest bug bear is when you have to return a part for assessment to a foreign country BEFORE they will release a replacement, though they are improving in this matter and is almost a thing of the past.
They have all been guilty of a lack of communication at times, which in this day and age of tablets, emails and high speed internet completely baffles me.
The latest hurdle is having to deal with separate parts suppliers to gather the required parts, such as Tektro,Magura,B+M,Avid rather than the bike supplier having stock of these.
When we imported Ezee bikes and BH Emotion we made damn sure we had several extra bikes worth of parts to back them up at all times.
Wisper support stand out above the rest with regards to having the necessary parts and issuing them quickly when needed.
Unfortunately it seems to be the norm nowadays to react to issues rather than prepare for them, so there will always be a delay-there will always be a solution, but after a delay-though generally not more than 2 weeks.
We (the UK) are the poor relations in the world of Ebikes, and seem to be dealt with by the Europeans almost as an afterthought....and until we start making them more money via increased sales, it will probably remain that way.
Just my rumblings and ruminations....

I totally agree,the current system of manufacturers passing over their warranty problems direct to the supplier is not acceptable and not working....could you imagine a Ford dealer having to go direct to say Lucas-Girling if he has a problem with an electrical part,that is the purpose of the massive Ford parts distribution warehouse at Daventry.
Perhaps someone will correct me,if I am wrong with the following.
All of the importers of the European supplied bikes keep nil stock of bikes and nil stock of parts in the UK.
They are purely middlemen between the manufacturer and the dealer.
If a dealer is interested in 'Super e-bike Germany' he orders the bikes off the importer,who then places the order on the manufacturer,that delivery can take anything from 1 week to 6 months,dependant upon stockholding in Germany, Currently,there are massive backlog of orders due to delays with the latest Bosch motor. The dealer takes all the risk,if he has ordered the wrong bikes,its his problem....if he hasn't ordered enough bikes then he may wait another lengthy delay for more stock.Unfortunately,the big German market appears to have first call as product appears.
It is amusing that I am currently getting bikes quicker in from China than I am from Germany!!!
Similarly,the importer holds no spares....if a problem occurs the dealer is directed to the individual supplier,this can lead to difficult communication problems....for example,I know of no Bosch spares that are held by importers in the UK,any problem the dealer is directed to Bosch direct,who are terrible at communicating.Thank goodness the Bosch unit appears very reliable.
To be honest I think this is a cop out by the importers and pretty much causes many of the problems experienced by forum members.
Kudos has no choice to hold stock of bikes and supporting spares....we have to think at least 6 months ahead for new stock,I am already starting to order bikes for 2015 delivery. Also we keep stock of as many spares as we think may be needed....I have spares of forks,motors laced into wheels,crank drive motors,Nuvinci hub units,displays,crank sensors,batteries,controllers,mudguards etc etc....obviously we do get caught out occassionally and then have to call in a 'favour' from one of our manufacturers. I don't think we have ever failed to get a bike back on the road within a few days.
I do think these importers should start doing their job properly,make orders on the manufacturer and hold a reservoir of stock for instant call-off and start holding some spares to get the bike back on the road.
If any of the importers read this and tell me they hold stock of bikes and spares then I respect them for doing so.
KudosDave

 

[103Alex1]

It all makes a mockery of warranties etc. when it takes that long to rectify problems. Anything more than a few days off the road is unacceptable and warrants a loan bike. Loss of use of a BH bike for a month in the first year = realistically over £70 depreciation (not compensated) plus loss of use leading to cost of alternative transportation (also not compensated).

For so long as these true costs remain uncompensated to the purchaser if something is sold that is not fit for purpose the supply chain has no incentive to get it right.

Bottom line is - don't bother buying new bikes if you want to stay on the road and need them for transport. Rather buy 2 second hand ones for the same money and use one as self-insurance against failure of the other.

 

[trex]

is it just me or anyone who rides a self build tends to be more critical of the dealers?

 

[103Alex1]

... on a grand scale ... such a load of old flannel till they get your money then we all know what to expect The PITA of holding them to account more trouble than it's worth. May as well learn to build and maintain your own and be free of it all. In the end, whatever it looks like in the showroom it's only a bicycle and will be worth jack **** in a couple of years' time !

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I totally agree,the current system of manufacturers passing over their warranty problems direct to the supplier is not acceptable and not working....could you imagine a Ford dealer having to go direct to say Lucas-Girling if he has a problem with an electrical part,that is the purpose of the massive Ford parts distribution warehouse at Daventry.
Perhaps someone will correct me,if I am wrong with the following.
All of the importers of the European supplied bikes keep nil stock of bikes and nil stock of parts in the UK.
They are purely middlemen between the manufacturer and the dealer.
If a dealer is interested in 'Super e-bike Germany' he orders the bikes off the importer,who then places the order on the manufacturer,that delivery can take anything from 1 week to 6 months,dependant upon stockholding in Germany, Currently,there are massive backlog of orders due to delays with the latest Bosch motor. The dealer takes all the risk,if he has ordered the wrong bikes,its his problem....if he hasn't ordered enough bikes then he may wait another lengthy delay for more stock.Unfortunately,the big German market appears to have first call as product appears.
It is amusing that I am currently getting bikes quicker in from China than I am from Germany!!!
Similarly,the importer holds no spares....if a problem occurs the dealer is directed to the individual supplier,this can lead to difficult communication problems....for example,I know of no Bosch spares that are held by importers in the UK,any problem the dealer is directed to Bosch direct,who are terrible at communicating.Thank goodness the Bosch unit appears very reliable.
To be honest I think this is a cop out by the importers and pretty much causes many of the problems experienced by forum members.
Kudos has no choice to hold stock of bikes and supporting spares....we have to think at least 6 months ahead for new stock,I am already starting to order bikes for 2015 delivery. Also we keep stock of as many spares as we think may be needed....I have spares of forks,motors laced into wheels,crank drive motors,Nuvinci hub units,displays,crank sensors,batteries,controllers,mudguards etc etc....obviously we do get caught out occassionally and then have to call in a 'favour' from one of our manufacturers. I don't think we have ever failed to get a bike back on the road within a few days.
I do think these importers should start doing their job properly,make orders on the manufacturer and hold a reservoir of stock for instant call-off and start holding some spares to get the bike back on the road.
If any of the importers read this and tell me they hold stock of bikes and spares then I respect them for doing so.
KudosDave

I can't respond to every point you've made dave, because I'm working remotely from my iPad and its difficult to split your reply up so I don't miss anything... However your comparison to the car industry is slightly unfair on the bike brands.

A small bike brand, with let's say 10 models (it doesn't matter if they are eBikes or normal bikes) can keep stock of spares for their bikes as you are finding is possible with Kudos. However the cycling industry is big, and many brands including ours have 200+ models in the range. Each of these 200+ bikes have individual components, there may be some that are the same on a couple of models, but the cross over is minimal.

Therefore at the scale the bike industry is at in Europe, the only sensible solution is for brands to look after their own warranties as they have quickest access to parts and the best knowledge available. This is how it works in cycling as a whole, not just eBikes.

If we have a problem with a rockshox fork on a bike, we call the uk service centre and its fixed.

I we have a problem with a shimano nexus hub, be it on an ebike or normal bike, the problem is fixed by shimano.

The problem at the moment is that the ebike market in the uk is too small for the big players like Bosch to invest in a uk service centre with stock of all the spares and tools needed.

I'm not going to give out the numbers because I don't have the exact details here, but we sold thousands of ktm bikes into the uk last year, from right across the range, we had less than 10 warranty issues, and the only one that happened twice was one of the older style carbon mountain bikes that we had two frames crack. If we'd have kept spares in our warehouse for all 200+ bikes in all sizes and colour options from all the different branded components used by ktm, we'd have gone busy and not needed 99.9999% of them.

It's different with cars, the market is much much bigger and the numbers make much more sense, so whilst it would be great for the euro brands to have stock of every component in every country it's simply not viable if you want the prices of the bikes to be kept at a sensible price.

Problems occur when the component brands don't live up to the levels of service that the bike brands demand.... Hence why there is no bionx in the ktm range for 2014.

We're also pushing Magura / Bosch hard to open a uk centre to give our dealers the support they deserve.

However the two problems discussed in this thread are caused by dealers not taking their customer needs seriously. I'm the bike retailers I've worked at, if any customers bike was off the road for a week, we'd lend them a bike to use whilst we waited for theirs to be repaired.

Both these cases can be sorted easily, and a bit of rust on the fork legs shouldn't keep your bike off the road, get it back and keep riding it... Just remind the shop every week that they owe you some forks.

With regard to the wheel, get it back from the dealer who is treating you badly, tell them you are going to get the wheel rebuilt by a decent shop, it'll cost you - bit, but you can move on and ride your bike... Bill the initial dealer for the work if they won't do it.

 

[trex]

...
With regard to the wheel, get it back from the dealer who is treating you badly, tell them you are going to get the wheel rebuilt by a decent shop, it'll cost you - bit, but you can move on and ride your bike... Bill the initial dealer for the work if they won't do it.

besides legal issues, if the rim or some spokes are faulty, another LBS may not have access to spare parts any more quickly than the BH dealer.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

There isn't any legal issues, it's just a crappy original equipment wheel. The brand just will replace it with something similar which is all they are required to do. Hiding rubbish components on bike builds is something many brands do to make their bikes seem cheaper to customers. It's only short term gain for the end user as in this case.

Best solution is take the wheel to another shop, and get it rebuilt with dT double butted spokes, they are available next day from many uk suppliers and any decent shop should be able to build it. Minimal cost and put it down to experience and move on.

 

[ghouluk]

(sorry in reply to ktm post last but one...posts crossed)

thats kind of an overly simplistic response though.

while i can understand the lack of held stock on some components for more specialist bikes

(1) i refuse to accept that delivery times of weeks/months are acceptable, i can get something sent anywhere globally, let alone in Europe in a few days, so a bike being off the road for weeks/months for a simple problem is not acceptable except in extreme circumstances - this is a constantly re-occuring trend from posters to this forum.

(2) where a problem is a known problem, or a batch problem - a recall/update system should be (preferably) provided proactively or (minimum) have a speeded up process in place.

(3) the dealers are taking 50% of the price as margin - how can this be justified unless they own any problems end to end.

(4) the culture in this industry seems to blame whichever part of the supply chain isn't involved, vendors blame components, distributors blame vendors, resellers blame distributors. Yes there do seem to be exceptions where ownership is taken, but often this seems to be on a favour/squeaky wheel basis.

(5) with respect, manufacturing processes, component costs and model ranges are without a doubt your problems, not ours as a consumer, if a model can't adequately be supported, then increase the price so it can, and then let people choose whether to buy or not on total cost of ownership, rather than selling them a bunch of untruths at point of sale (this obviously isn't directed at you, i don't own a KTM)

I've been quite lucky with the problems with my bike, in that the distributor kindly lent me a bike while mine was off the road, however in real terms 25% of time without a bike that cost >2k is not good.

My advice to most of the "which ebike should i buy" posts, has always been ride them and see what you like best, but I feel that i may have given posters a bad steer.

I can honestly say that despite the BH being a great bike, and both maxtrack and BH UK working hard with me to try to solve problem, I'll never buy another BH bike. - My next purchase will either be a home build (as at least then i have only myself to blame) or i will pay much much more attention to after sales service as a major aspect of purchase decision - tbh i approached my ebike purchase as if i was buying a bike, believing that a combination of a well stocked reseller, trusted distributor and global big bike manufacturer would adequately support a premium product - sadly this doesn't seem to be the case in the ebike world.

 

[ghouluk]

There isn't any legal issues, it's just a crappy original equipment wheel. The brand just will replace it with something similar which is all they are required to do. Hiding rubbish components on bike builds is something many brands do to make their bikes seem cheaper to customers. It's only short term gain for the end user as in this case.

Best solution is take the wheel to another shop, and get it rebuilt with dT double butted spokes, they are available next day from many uk suppliers and any decent shop should be able to build it. Minimal cost and put it down to experience and move on.

uhmmmm looking at my bh documentation, it seems to me that if you change any components, BH can refuse any further warranty claims - seems like an issue to me (though i'm not 100% sure this is legal)

I'd also query the use of "best" here

Best solution is dealer takes responsibility for problem and fixes.
Best solution is manufacturer supports the product
most likely solution to get the bike working is consumer has to own the issue.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

thats kind of an overly simplistic response though.

while i can understand the lack of held stock on some components for more specialist bikes

(1) i refuse to accept that delivery times of weeks/months are acceptable, i can get something sent anywhere globally, let alone in Europe in a few days, so a bike being off the road for weeks/months for a simple problem is not acceptable except in extreme circumstances - this is a constantly re-occuring trend from posters to this forum.

(2) where a problem is a known problem, or a batch problem - a recall/update system should be (preferably) provided proactively or (minimum) have a speeded up process in place.

(3) the dealers are taking 50% of the price as margin - how can this be justified unless they own any problems end to end.

(4) the culture in this industry seems to blame whichever part of the supply chain isn't involved, vendors blame components, distributors blame vendors, resellers blame distributors. Yes there do seem to be exceptions where ownership is taken, but often this seems to be on a favour/squeaky wheel basis.

(5) with respect, manufacturing processes, component costs and model ranges are without a doubt your problems, not ours as a consumer, if a model can't adequately be supported, then increase the price so it can, and then let people choose whether to buy or not on total cost of ownership, rather than selling them a bunch of untruths at point of sale (this obviously isn't directed at you, i don't own a KTM)

I've been quite lucky with the problems with my bike, in that the distributor kindly lent me a bike while mine was off the road, however in real terms 25% of time without a bike that cost >2k is not good.

My advice to most of the "which ebike should i buy" posts, has always been ride them and see what you like best, but I feel that i may have given posters a bad steer.

I can honestly say that despite the BH being a great bike, and both maxtrack and BH UK working hard with me to try to solve problem, I'll never buy another BH bike. - My next purchase will either be a home build (as at least then i have only myself to blame) or i will pay much much more attention to after sales service as a major aspect of purchase decision - tbh i approached my ebike purchase as if i was buying a bike, believing that a combination of a well stocked reseller, trusted distributor and global big bike manufacturer would adequately support a premium product - sadly this doesn't seem to be the case in the ebike world.

Sorry if my summary over simplified the system, but that is how it works, I've worked in the cycle industry for 20+ years, we've seen lots of brands try different things but the current system appears to be working the best, it's just let down when individual component brands don't meet the expectations of the bike brands, their dealers and the end consumer.

I don't remember ever saying the delivery times of over 2 weeks are acceptably, what I am trying to explain is how the process is set up to work, to give you some idea of how it works from a brand / importer level.

If a dealer can't get a component from the official warranty route, then a good dealer will look for solutions and make sure complaints are made to the bike brand involved. We for instance know that there are a few component brands who are not great at looking after our dealers needs, so this feedback goes to ktm and you quickly find that these brands components are no longer bought to build the bikes.

This is why all brands (component and bike) need companies in every country taking responsibility for them. If any warranty problems take too long, things need to be changed.

And whilst I appreciate your point, you also have to realise that all bikes are "specialist" and all components are branded and made by someone and any warranty has to go back to them in the end the bike brand is just a middle man themselves really, as they won't make the components that they buy in to build their bikes.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

uhmmmm looking at my bh documentation, it seems to me that if you change any components, BH can refuse any further warranty claims - seems like an issue to me (though i'm not 100% sure this is legal)

I'd also query the use of "best" here

Best solution is dealer takes responsibility for problem and fixes.
Best solution is manufacturer supports the product
most likely solution to get the bike working is consumer has to own the issue.

That's true, if you build the wheel with new spokes, the warranty passes to the new spike brand, it's no longer a BH issue. Same as if you up grade anything on a bike, or change the brake pads or tyres, when you change them they are no longer original equipment so not coved by BH. Do you think they really expect you not to change the tyres, or the saddle, or a chain or any of the other parts that people regularly upgrade on any bike?

And I was talking about best for this customer. BH it appears are now trying to work direct from Spain, do you think the dealer is going to be getting good service from a company trying to look after an entire European dealer work from one office... It doesn't work, many have tried it in an attempt to save money and it doesn't work.

 

[RobF]

Buy a Rose.

Mine has been faultless, and from what I can gather they look after you if it does go wrong.

One problem, there are no Rose ebikes at the moment because they can't get the drives from Bosch.

You couldn't make it up, but sadly you don't have to.

 

[Croxden]

Buy a Rose.

Mine has been faultless, and from what I can gather they look after you if it does go wrong.

One problem, there are no Rose ebikes at the moment because they can't get the drives from Bosch.

You couldn't make it up, but sadly you don't have to.

My bike wish list ended up with a Rose or a Grace, if the free post offer from Rose had come a little sooner I might still be riding a pedelec instead of the steam powered machine currently in use.
But a new bike is on order, delivery December.

 

[ghouluk]

If any warranty problems take too long, things need to be changed.

ok - this wasn't clear from your post to me, it appeared you were defending the system, not explaining it.

And whilst I appreciate your point, you also have to realise that all bikes are "specialist" and all components are branded and made by someone and any warranty has to go back to them in the end the bike brand is just a middle man themselves really, as they won't make the components that they buy in to build their bikes.

As i say, that's a vendors problem, rather than a consumer, if you need to add 25% to the price to hold stock of spares, or to negotiate an SLA on parts supply, or whatever you need to do, then do it.

the consumer suffering, whether or not thats the way it has worked for 20 years, doesn't really help to grow the ebike business, or the reputations of manufacturers.

(that said, again this isn't directed at you guys personally in any way)

either way this is an interesting thread for me, too often we do only see our perspective, and its good to see manufacturers giving their point of view - shame no retailers are doing the same. I do appreciate that the retailer can be the weak link in the chain (as can customer, vendor or distributor - but at least we customers have the excuse that this is our hobby, not our business)

(and its GREAT to see that people are changing warranties to show that they are prepared to support their products - kudos (no pun intended) for that)

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Regarding margins, lets just say it is nowhere near 50%. This is a misconception I am sure all dealers would love to be able to work to that margin but it would just make e bikes even more expensive.

 

[ghouluk]

some digging around suggests about 35% on bikes, 45 on clothing, and almost 50% on components.

apologies for the misrepresentation (and this is off the interlie, so who knows) but it does raise an interesting point.

My hardware vendors tell me they need 50% to deal with stock, warranty, support, returns, as opposed to software where they can survive on 8%. We've done some work on mapping this and its pretty much true.

so let me try looking at this from your perspective...do you think bikes are just too cheap to be supported properly at point of sale?