Battery problem - with background

[JamesW]

Battery 36V 10mAh frog cased battery.

Should be under warrantee but kit supplier has voided warrantee for very dodgy reasons. (case broke - lug at the back snapped off after 5 months of use) and kit supplier says "The break to the base of the battery was caused by riding over pot-holed and bumpy roads as you explained ... and recorded in my notes being features of your particular ride. Such riding is beyond reasonable use of our products." - neglects to mention that theses were mentioned before purchase over the phone and assured me that battery would be ok!

"pot-holed and bumpy roads" are normal roads such as you would find on any main road into an industrial estate. Pot holes are caused by erosion but not excessive and bumps are just as you would expect from lots of contractors digging up the road surface all the time so the surface is uneven...

Anyway Battery case was "repaired" by supplier with a strip of aluminium and a strip of duct tape around the case to hold the aluminium in place. this however caused electrical connectivity failure due to the lug not being in the correct place and the battery bouncing on the back of the bike to the point that it eventually bounced right off! Having been offered a replacement case for £110 I was not impressed and not medically fit or in a position to chase this up between July and November.

d8veh "sold" me a new case for the battery for a VERY reasonable price and I've been up and running again for 2 weeks.

I've done 80 miles this week I live 20miles from work but have a train option so was building back up to the full route again.

Full charge did Monday 20 miles home , full charge did Wed 20 miles home. Noticed the charger socket was rattling loose so I tighten it on Thursday morning. Full charge did 5 miles before dropping to 50% then at 7.5 miles I bottled out and caught the last train option as I could see the battery was not going to make it all 20 miles home - 1st time ever!

Used to manage 20miles with just under 50% left in June (before losing fitness and swapping Marathon Plus tyres for Snow tyres)

Nothing different in terms of weight of bike on Mon, Wed and Thurs.

Voltage of battery when home last night 38.9V
Voltage of battery after full charge over night 42.1V
Voltage of battery after cycling 7miles to work this morning 39.8V - already dropping noticeably on the hills near the start, wouldn't expect this 'til at least 10 miles in!

Have looked inside case again and can't see any shorts.

Any suggestions?

(Went with this kit supplier because they were BEBA - don't trust BEBA as far as I can throw them anymore. The warranty seems to be worthless if they can just pick and chose what they support. Also interesting to see they have stopped selling this kit now! Not prepared to name them just yet!)

 

[VictoryV]

Battery 36V 10mAh frog cased battery.

Have looked inside case again and can't see any shorts.

Any suggestions?

Its been down to 3c in the daytime here in Bedfordshire with times of really damp drizzle, add to that your airspeed and you have conditions for severe chill factor for your battery - it may just be feeling the cold!!

 

[JamesW]

a 5deg temp drop should not equate to a 15mile range loss!

 

[oigoi]

If you range is consistently down you my have a few duff cells. Could try running the bike until the battery is quite flat and then measuring the cell voltages to confirm this

 

[Geebee]

Do you have a link to the battery pack and what motor/ controller are you running?
Could your setup be pulling to many amps for the batteries ability to supply, it would explain the short life.

 

[JamesW]

Do you have a link to the battery pack and what motor/ controller are you running?
Could your setup be pulling to many amps for the batteries ability to supply, it would explain the short life.

I doubt it is pulling too many amps for the battery to support as the kit was warranteed for 1 year (which inceidentally should expire at the start of Feb) and included the battery. it was not cheap (£600)

I rather suspect from some of the conversations that I had with the supplier that the kits were not selling very fast so it may have been around on the shelf for a while - but that is mere speculation.

motor is front hub - controller has no useful info. supplier has removed it from their website.

You will notice that I am still not naming and shaming the supplier - this is as I was hoping to work out the reason for the very sudden drop in battery performance last week as a separate issue to my ongoing fun that I am having with the supplier and I don't particularly want to jeopardise any future relations with the supplier by annoying them at this point. (I have nothing really to gain and it would just be spiteful at this point to damage someone's reputation. - Unless the battery has failed prematurely in which case the ball game changes!)

Any one else got any ideas?
Any dealers got any comments?

James

 

[OldBob1]

A lowering of temperature will make a difference in battery performance also is the battery being charged and kept overnight at a good temperature (15-20 C).
I notice the drop in performance when the degrees drop! including me.

 

[JamesW]

the battery is being charged both at work and at home. it is only outside for the time it is attached to the bike (+attachment time), otherwise it is kept/charged in the house (about 18degC)!

Whilst I was expecting a change in performance with temperature, I was not expecting such a sudden drop off in performance! (especially bearing in mind I already know expected cold weather performance from Feb/March cycling.) I was also not expecting such a drop in battery performance from a Li-ion battery that is less than 12 months old, I was expecting to go at least 18months before I might start seeing enough performance drop off that I might need to look at a new battery!)

James

 

[patpatbut]

In most cases you are correct that a new battery should be last longer than 12 months but it is really up to how you are using it. If the cells are not capable of doing 15amp, stressing them will lead to cells fail prematurely.

If you could check what cells you are using this could help us to find out

 

[JamesW]

Ok - I give up trying to protect the supplier as they will probably not give me this info easily and I am not going to be able to get this without unwrapping the battery pack.

The kit it a Juicy Bit kit.

Anyone have any knowledge of the conversion kit specs?

Can't believe I haven't thought of this before... I should have got Juicy to look at the road on the worst part of the commute on Google maps (it's pretty much the same state now as when the pics were taken).

Does anyone think "Wilbury Way (Hitchin) - just the main road up from the traffic lights is particularly unsuitable for an ebike and warrants Juicy voiding the warrantee? (The worst bits is between the Sikh temple and the traffic lights, esp where the road bends)

 

[patpatbut]

I believe you are talking about this kit right?

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/juicy-bike-conversion-kit-on-trek-7300-fx.10105/

Pat

 

[Geebee]

The warranty should not be voided short of extreme offroad use on a non MTB, if the pack design was so poor it should have been replaced.

You are riding on road, there should be no warranty issue and if there was I would be approaching the appropriate government dept. to pursue it.
Their comment is total BS, would they say the same if the fuel tank fell out of a car? "The break to the base of the battery was caused by riding over pot-holed and bumpy roads as you explained ... and recorded in my notes being features of your particular ride. Such riding is beyond reasonable use of our products."

The description of the first repair sounds very backyard and poor, I worked in a repair industry and if a tech had done that as a long tem warranty repair he would have been sacked.

Dont open the battery pack return it to the shop and have it be repaired under warranty, escalate as required to achieve this.

 

[JamesW]

That would be correct Pat,

Does that help identify the issue?

I remember finding that that thread before I decided to purchase - I had a hard ceiling of £600 above which I was not allowed to spend so that was really my only option that I could find. I assumed that BEBA membership = good support - and it did for the first few minor niggles I had, but as soon as this possible expensive issue came along....

 

[JamesW]

The warranty should not be voided short of extreme offroad use on a non MTB, if the pack design was so poor it should have been replaced.

You are riding on road, there should be no warranty issue and if there was I would be approaching the appropriate government dept. to pursue it.
Their comment is total BS, would they say the same if the fuel tank fell out of a car? "The break to the base of the battery was caused by riding over pot-holed and bumpy roads as you explained ... and recorded in my notes being features of your particular ride. Such riding is beyond reasonable use of our products."

The description of the first repair sounds very backyard and poor, I worked in a repair industry and if a tech had done that as a long tem warranty repair he would have been sacked.

Dont open the battery pack return it to the shop and have it be repaired under warranty, escalate as required to achieve this.

I have an issue here Geebee...

Bob decided to VOID the warrantee even though I told him it was [I'm not allowed to say what I think here according to forum guidelines] and unreasonable.

I was then given 3 Options:
1) pay £30 for shipping it back to them for "repairs" to keep me going
2) pay £250 for a complete new battery pack
3) pay £110 for a new battery case to be ordered from China, my battery taken back and put in the new case.

(continuing)...

 

[JamesW]

.... (continued)

That was in July.
I paid £30 for a fix that lasted 3 weeks. Unfortunately I my battery pack flew off my bike on the way home the last week before I was due to take 2 weeks holiday with my family. I decided I would deal with it when I had the time over the holiday... Things didn't quite work out.

The second week of holiday, I was in hospital with 5 major epileptic seizures in less than 24 hours (following controlled drug reduction) and as a result I have not had the energy or the physical fitness to ride my bike or chase up the battery issue until November! This means I also lost my driving license (AND had no EBIKE at the time when I most needed my ebike since I have got it!)
Since getting the energy in November, I decided that as Bob had decided to VOID the warrantee - it is unclear how much or the warrantee he thinks he has voided, I would get hold of a replacement case and fit it myself.

d8veh supplied me with 2 cases for the cost of postage (£4) which I'm sure you will agree is much better than paying £110 for a new case!

Still not convinced that Bob's voiding of my warrantee is legal, but convinced that ay court would rule in my favour if it came to justifying moving the battery to a different case. (Have before and after pics.)

James

 

[JamesW]

(Also have another issue here Geebee) the technician was going to replace the battery until the MD/boss got involved and decided I must have been using beyond reasonable use.
I have never used the kit on anything other than cycle tracks and I know roads (tarmac) and I don't do mountain biking. Herts/Cambs border is not really that hilly or with that much off road stuff that I am aware of (in fact I know of none near me)!

Did have an issue with battery charger connection working lose that I was going to report as a fault right up until the battery case broke!

 

[Mrke]

Sounds like awful customer service from Juicy, they should have honoured the warranty when the issues were first highlighted. From what you say the repair they did for you sounds like a complete bodge. However as the battery has now been recased I don't think you will now have any grounds to forcefully peruse the issue if any cells have failed.

I wish you good luck in finding the issue and effecting a satisfactory repair.

Maybe a pm to d8veh would be the best next move? You never know, he may offer to check/repair the battery pack for you or at least suggest someone who would for a reasonable cost....

 

[JamesW]

As I said, battery broke and was " fixed" by Juicy in July when it then broke again. My last contact with them was in July to tell them that I was going to get.a camera and mount it on the bike to video the route so they could reinstatethe warranty. However the camera wobbled too much on the handlebars and by the time that was fixed that battery was broken. Catch 22 when you need the battery to get the video but the case is broken!

I decided to look at sourcing a battery case from elsewhere as £110 was ott for a warranty issue.

Wonder if credit card company would help me persue this - what does anyone think?

If Juicy had sent back the whole kit box when they returned the battery instead of just the battery, I would have sent it all back as "not fit for purpose" and demanded a full refund without hesitantation - I suspect that is why I didn't get the kit box back. Bob was worried I might do that! (I had 4 other issues before this!)

 

[trex]

may be you should meet Bob half way.
Batteries do suffer a great deal on bumpy roads, made worse when it's not in use regulary. Long gaps between ride create unbalance between the cells. Did you buy just the battery or the whole bike from Bob?

 

[cwah]

Frog batteries are by themselves unfit for purpose. A battery pack is way too heavy to be handled on a single metal hand.

I had one before and it failed within 3 months. Same for other member. Fix will only be temporary, and failure can lead to this:

or this

Only solution is to get an extra support such as this:

Otherwise, you should get a pack mounted in a rear rack or a bottle battery. That would solve your problems.