Battery life

[WheezyRider]

After throwing away older laptops, I think the oldest laptop and charger I have left is a Toshiba made in 1998, and it still works. I have increasing low confidence in modern electronic products, which I believe are designed to fail far quicker - particularly the cheap ones.



My last charge was a couple of days ago, caps will be empty by now. I'll have a good nosey around...

The worst time for electrolytics was around the turn of the century and in the naughties...some big manufacturers started using a dodgy formula, manufacturing billions of capacitors with it, leading to massive failures of electronic equipment. I inherited a lot of computer PSU and motherboards from this. Replaced the caps and in many cases ended up with excellent kit for free.

Large electrolytics usually have a bleed off resistor, so once the power is off they are not left at dangerous voltages.

I'm sure the Bluetooth could be hard wired with an off switch, but I've not seen it done yet. I'm not a fan of smart phone apps and Bluetooth myself. I'd rather have a multimeter and some accessible ports.

 

[georgehenry]

Have you considered an aftermarket compatible battery like this at £283

Battery E-bike Pedelec 13000mAh (13Ah) for Yamaha B94-20, PASB2, X94-20 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Battery E-bike Pedelec 13000mAh (13Ah) for Yamaha B94-20, PASB2, X94-20 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

I have seen mixed reviews on after market compatible batteries with more having problems than those that don't.

I like to be optimistic and have been surprised how well my original Yamaha battery has lasted with good capacity, so probably unrealistically now hope it can last 10/12 years. We will see.

Soundwave mentioned a guy in Holland with a device that would allow my battery to be re-celled, but due to some electronic components being in short supply it is not available.

Certainly a generic battery at around £300 is tempting, but if it proved troublesome you would have all the hassle of going too and fro with the vendor to in the worst scenario try and get your money back.

At the beginning of September I did a long ride to see how the range of my battery was holding up and ending up riding 48 miles and having an indicated 25% of my battery left. However I rode in a very conservative way which would not be how you would want to ride normally. It was good to find out that it could go a long way, but in truth I was knackered by the time I got home.

 

[soundwave]

https://www.avdweb.nl/popular/maxun-e-kit/battery-hack

sonstige(s) - Yamaha Batterie Hack mit fuel gauge LTC2944

Ich habe eine Batterie Dongle gebaut siehe meinen Artikel hier: Battery hack Und die files auf GitHub: avandalen/Yamaha-battery-dongle Eigenschaften des Yamaha Batterie Dongle: Die Batteriekapazität wird mit einem LTC2944-Kraftstoffanzeige-IC sehr genau gemessen Batteriekapazität...

www.pedelecforum.de

E-Bike Vision Battery, compatible to Yamaha (PW / ST / TE / CE )

With the E-Bike Vision battery, compatible with the Yamaha* drive system, you get a powerful E-Bike battery for unforgettable riding fun on every ride.

e-bike-vision.de

 

[guerney]

https://www.avdweb.nl/popular/maxun-e-kit/battery-hack

sonstige(s) - Yamaha Batterie Hack mit fuel gauge LTC2944

Ich habe eine Batterie Dongle gebaut siehe meinen Artikel hier: Battery hack Und die files auf GitHub: avandalen/Yamaha-battery-dongle Eigenschaften des Yamaha Batterie Dongle: Die Batteriekapazität wird mit einem LTC2944-Kraftstoffanzeige-IC sehr genau gemessen Batteriekapazität...

www.pedelecforum.de

Like Bosch, Yamaha will improve their knackerware/defeat technology - consumers would be better off buying a more open, or easier to hack in the long term ebike system to begin with.

 

[soundwave]

Experte für E-Bike Akku Reparaturen | Liofit GmbH - Reparatur von E-Bike Akkus

Wir helfen dir weiter, wenn dein E-Bike Akku defekt ist! Einfach einsenden, wir lesen den Fehler aus und erstellen dir einen Kostenvoranschlag. Kein Sorgen, kein Aufwand für dich - wir erledigen das!

www.liofit.com

there in Germany tho but it can be hacked

 

[AndyBike]

$1000 lithium battery pack every 1-2 years

or $2/week to put things in perspective.

 

[guerney]

or $2/week to put things in perspective.

I prefer the 50p a week generic battery (containing good quality brand name cells) perspective.

 

[soundwave]

look at it like this with my bike compared to gh yamaha.

my 400w batts capacity is so low it was no good for my riding with a dongle yet gh worn out the motor bearings b4 the batts range was no longer any good for the rides he does.

the difference is i use a dongle so pulling as much amps as it can give and at 112 charge cycles and 8 years of use it was time to retire it to science/bms hacking.

the bosch warranty is 200 charge cycles or 2 years but with a dongle it wont make that many cycles and if it was the only batt i had it would have died years ago and why i use 2 batts to spread the load.

there are 40 cells in my 500w pack and at 10 quid each would be 400 quid just for the cells and then the labor on top to make the pack and add a bms so it wont be far off the price of a retail one at £633.

but i can pick the cells as i have no idea what is in the new 500w one i got this year they could be good or a pile of crap only time will tell.

 

[soundwave]

needs more power tho

AM Racing AMR 250-90 Single AC Motor - Liquid Cooled, Permanent Magnet - Remy Cartridge, EV West - Electric Vehicle Parts, Components, EVSE Charging Stations, Electric Car Conversion Kits

www.evwest.com

 

[guerney]

The worst time for electrolytics was around the turn of the century and in the naughties...some big manufacturers started using a dodgy formula, manufacturing billions of capacitors with it, leading to massive failures of electronic equipment. I inherited a lot of computer PSU and motherboards from this. Replaced the caps and in many cases ended up with excellent kit for free.

I remember that, every good manufacturer seemed affected - shortly after the dust had settled, Asus and Gigabyte started selling motherboards containing "Solid capacitors", and have ever since. I must admit, straying from Asus and Gigabyte meant disaster wasn't far behind. Quite honestly, I'm tempted to open and inspect my next LED monitor's capacitors, as soon as it's delivered - the fast failure rate is really quite annoying. I have CFL backlit monitors decades old and they still work. By the time LED driver boards fail, they cost more than the original monitor.

Who are the better brand capacitor manufacturers? Is there a list? Maybe there's a Tom's Hardware or AnandTech "100 capacitors tested and ranked!" page...

 

[WheezyRider]

I remember that, every good manufacturer seemed affected - shortly after the dust had settled, Asus and Gigabyte started selling motherboards containing "Solid capacitors", and have ever since. I must admit, straying from Asus and Gigabyte meant disaster wasn't far behind. Quite honestly, I'm tempted to open and inspect my next LED monitor's capacitors, as soon as it's delivered - the fast failure rate is really quite annoying. I have CFL backlit monitors decades old and they still work. By the time LED driver boards fail, they cost more than the original monitor.

Who are the better brand capacitor manufacturers? Is there a list? Maybe there's a Tom's Hardware or AnandTech "100 capacitors tested and ranked!" page...

I think electrolytics are much better now than they were 15 yr ago. I still some some failures, but not that often now. I wouldn't open up something unnecessarily of high value still under warranty.

You can get Panasonics from Farnell.

 

[georgehenry]

look at it like this with my bike compared to gh yamaha.

my 400w batts capacity is so low it was no good for my riding with a dongle yet gh worn out the motor bearings b4 the batts range was no longer any good for the rides he does.

the difference is i use a dongle so pulling as much amps as it can give and at 112 charge cycles and 8 years of use it was time to retire it to science/bms hacking.

the bosch warranty is 200 charge cycles or 2 years but with a dongle it wont make that many cycles and if it was the only batt i had it would have died years ago and why i use 2 batts to spread the load.

there are 40 cells in my 500w pack and at 10 quid each would be 400 quid just for the cells and then the labor on top to make the pack and add a bms so it wont be far off the price of a retail one at £633.

but i can pick the cells as i have no idea what is in the new 500w one i got this year they could be good or a pile of crap only time will tell.

I think I obviously do ride my bike in a different way to soundwave. However the ability of my bike to be ridden at speed may not be that different other than the capabilities of the different motors.

There are clues in my posts. When I retired at 60 as a fit but overweight (100kg plus) man my bike could get me 10 miles from work to home with two full panniers at an average speed of 20 mph. 10 miles in 30 minutes, sometimes a bit longer time but sometimes a bit less time. There are a number of hills on the route. I am not an Olympic athlete. The deductive powers of Agatha Christie's Poirot are not required

My bike has had that capability from birth in March 2015. The battery is the original 400Wh battery that came with the bike. As I have posted I got a new motor right on the two year warranty point after riding it 6,000 miles, and recently had that second replaced motor refurbished by Peter at Performance line bearings after it had been ridden 10,610 miles.

So in relation to this thread about batteries the more interesting question is how much difference my style of riding has made to the longevity of the battery despite the bikes ability to be ridden quickly.

 

[guerney]

I think electrolytics are much better now than they were 15 yr ago. I still some some failures, but not that often now. I wouldn't open up something unnecessarily of high value still under warranty.

You can get Panasonics from Farnell.

Thank you, when this LED monitor I'm using fails, I'll inspect the board for puffy caps and attempt to replace - it's about time I developed some finer foldering skills. I think it suspicious that LED backlit TVs last many years, yet LED backlit monitors only last about 3 (lately I've been buying LG & Viewsonic IPS).

 

[guerney]

I think I obviously do ride my bike in a different way to soundwave. However the ability of my bike to be ridden at speed may not be that different other than the capabilities of the different motors.

There are clues in my posts. When I retired at 60 as a fit but overweight (100kg plus) man my bike could get me 10 miles from work to home with two full panniers at an average speed of 20 mph. 10 miles in 30 minutes, sometimes a bit longer time but sometimes a bit less time. There are a number of hills on the route. I am not an Olympic athlete. The deductive powers of Agatha Christie's Poirot are not required

My bike has had that capability from birth in March 2015. The battery is the original 400Wh battery that came with the bike. As I have posted I got a new motor right on the two year warranty point after riding it 6,000 miles, and recently had that second replaced motor refurbished by Peter at Performance line bearings after it had been ridden 10,610 miles.

So in relation to this thread about batteries the more interesting question is how much difference my style of riding has made to the longevity of the battery despite the bikes ability to be ridden quickly.

I wonder what cells Bosch and Yamaha batteries contain? Do they manufacture their own?

 

[Bikes4two]

I think I obviously do ride my bike in a different way to soundwave............
.........................
So in relation to this thread about batteries the more interesting question is how much difference my style of riding has made to the longevity of the battery despite the bikes ability to be ridden quickly.

This thread has had me reading all sorts of info on batteries (reputable stuff not chat room anecdotes) and the general set of ideas I've come away with (about prolonging battery life) are:

• ensure by what ever means that your charger is not over charging the battery
• there are benefits to charging to less than the max 4.2v per cell
• slower charging is beneficial compared to faster charging (all related to the 'C' of the battery cells)
• and ditto dis-charge rates (as in beating the ** out of the motor/battery vs more gentler power assist)
• don't fully discharge your battery. In fact it seems that within limits the less you discharge the battery before re-charging, the more 'full discharge cycles' you'll get
• don't leave your battery stored for prolonged periods at fully charged levels nor store it at high temperatures (e.g. 30degC)
• if your battery allows it, monitor each cell stack to keep an eye on balancing (in case your BMS screws up)

In terms of your specific question, I could only hazard a guess that you've had long battery service life because you re-charge well before the full discharge state (10 mile commute) and ride at modest power levels (fit 60 yr old) - but that's just my humbel opinion .

 

[Nealh]

Bosch use generic quality brand cells from many manufactures, my brothers original gen 1 one that went tits up after swimming in coke had Samsung 22p 10a cells. That was fitted to a kalkhoff S pedelec.

 

[georgehenry]

• ensure by what ever means that your charger is not over charging the battery

Yamaha Charger. No

Generic Chinese Chargers No although a timer plug used to cut mains power after a given amount of time

• there are benefits to charging to less than the max 4.2v per cell

Yamaha Charger No/unknown.

Generic Chinese Charger No although a crude partial charge could be given by using the timer plug to cut power before a full charge is reached.

• slower charging is beneficial compared to faster charging (all related to the 'C' of the battery cells)

Yamaha Charger believed to be 3.6A.

Generic Chinese Charger believed to be 2A

• and ditto dis-charge rates (as in beating the ** out of the motor/battery vs more gentler power assist)

Yamaha ridden 12/16 miles to work in lowest assist eco offering 100% support, and off, no support, using 25% to 35% of batteries capacity. Battery charged back to full at work and then ridden 10 miles home on the road using mostly lowest support eco offering 100% support, and occasional middle assist offering 190% support to maintain speed over/up steeper hills, and occasional no support for steeper downhill gradients, using mostly 40% of the batteries capacity but up to 50% depending on conditions. Battery then removed and stored in the house.

Rear hub bikes with silverfish 15Ah batteries ridden on short shopping trips, other general errands, and also 20 mile return road trips to work where the battery was charged at work before the ride home. Generally ridden using maximum assist, and an average speed for the rides to and from work around 19mph. After any ride irrespective of length the battery was put on charge using a timer plug.

• don't fully discharge your battery. In fact it seems that within limits the less you discharge the battery before re-charging, the more 'full discharge cycles' you'll get

Yamaha almost never discharged below 50% during its life as a commuting vehicle.

Silverfish batteries more deeply discharged

• don't leave your battery stored for prolonged periods at fully charged levels nor store it at high temperatures (e.g. 30degC)

Yamaha battery stored mostly at close to 60% charged and never left for prolonged periods fully charged and stored inside the house.

Silverfish batteries much more often left fully charged and left on the bikes in an unheated brick garage.

• if your battery allows it, monitor each cell stack to keep an eye on balancing (in case your BMS screws up)

No monitoring for any of my batteries

I think my Yamaha battery has lasted so well despite the relatively high mileage I have ridden as in its commuting role it was used very regularly, hardly ever discharged below 50%, hardly ever spend much time fully charged before being ridden, and stored inside the house. The cost of a replacement battery is a powerful tool in battery care! By luck my commuting distance was just right for the capacity of my battery and the way I used it.

 

[guerney]

Bosch use generic quality brand cells from many manufactures, my brothers original gen 1 one that went tits up after swimming in coke had Samsung 22p 10a cells. That was fitted to a kalkhoff S pedelec.

That Bosch don't make their own cells from shiny Unicorn turds, sourced from leprechaun pots found at the ends of rainbows, is very disappointing, because that could justify their high priced batteries.

How did enough coke end up inside your brother's battery? Does he work in a coke factory, and did he leave his bike next to a coke mixing tank? I had dropped a power bank containing 18650 cells (I think - maybe four) somewhere in my garden three weeks ago, and finally found it yesterday - it's been rained on for three weeks It's waterproof if the flap over the ports is closed, and still works, but the USB ports have rusted, because I had left a cable attached and the flap over the ports was open. The ports were pointed downwards, luckily. It charges and discharges ok, but I may have to replace the ports. And then I lost one of my new heavily waterproof treated new leather gloves. I'll add velcro straps to them next time, to attach to the bike grips when unused. But those cheap leather gloves did become windproof, kept my hands warm cycling in 4 degrees centigrade, and seemed waterproof, enough for light showers at the very least. I was quite pleased with them, until I lost one. My next pair won't have any lining (that pair had Thinsulate) - I'll get a larger size in leather again, but use silk gloves as liners.

 

[georgehenry]

I have talked about the longevity of my Yamaha battery because this is a battery thread, and I have been very impressed by the battery, however there is an Elephant in the room.

When my bespoke Yamaha battery connectors failed on my Yamaha battery when the bike had just turned 3 years old after completing a mere 8,592 miles I was given no other option by the dealership I bought it from than to bin it and buy another one. It was not the dealers fault, they had been excellent up to that point and continue to give me excellent service, their hands were tied by the distributor.

I managed with help from a friend to fix it myself without triggering the defeat technology that could have locked down the battery. We had no help, had to open up the battery blind, and solder new connectors inside, and had to use generic chock block style ones (less than a tenner) off ebay as at that time generic replacement ones similar to the ones Yamaha used could not be sourced (At least by us).

I wrote a thread about my experience and still occasionally get posts on it with pleas for help from people facing the same problem.

I love my bike for its sophisticated torque controlled crank drive system which has such impressive capabilities off road but I have not bought another as I have become more worldly wise about the horrors of systems that lock you out and cannot easily be fixed.

 

[Nealh]

The battery was a spare one kept in a wp pannier along with the coke.
I think the BMS likely failed , how I don't know but he mangaed to post it back to bosh who simply binned it.