Battery Fires

[Ghost1951]

Many things and technologies we use can pose a risk. Some like petrol powered transport are extremely dangerous if misused or damaged.

I remember once a long time ago on a motorway journey with my family, stopping in a service area and noticing a very strong smell of petrol from the jag that was parked next to my car. An older chap was fiddling about in the boot and because of the smell of petrol I went to have a chat with him. His very disabled and immobile wife was sitting in the car and the boot had petrol swilling about on the floor. The fuel hose came up through the floor of the boot and was perforated where it joined onto a spigot from the tank and fuel pump on its way to the engine. I sorted it it out for him, cleaned up the petrol on the boot floor, and helped him stop his car becoming a fie bomb and wife cremation machine.

Many things we use daily could pose grave risks to the stupid and unwary. The point is we learn how to use them properly. That is the way things have operated nearly all of my life, and I think it is a big mistake to restrict by law, everything that could possibly cause harm if abused by an idiot so that sensible people have a hard time getting around the permission to do ordinary things. We have already gone much too far down the control and prohibition route of late in my opinion. Idiots will kill themselves. Sensible people won't. It is harmful to interfere with natural selection. This is what made the species so successful.

 

[soundwave]

 

[portals]

Crikey, I briefly had a gold Rover Fastback 800 (the tank) in late 90s, whilst it had a legit MOT when I got it I didn't realise that the pipe from the fuel filler cap to the tank was badly rusted and it got much worse very quickly, last time I tried to fill it on petrol station forecourt half the petrol I was putting in was came straight out a large hole that appeared in the pipe and spewed on to forecourt...took me few seconds to realise, dude in kiosk was not amused as he had to bring out buckets of sand and spray it down...banned!

So for next week or so I used a jerry can to get petrol and took it to a rough piece of ground to fill then moved car and carefully burnt off any spilled petrol. Took it to a guy who does MOTs and is a welder and he knocked up a replacement pipe in minutes and fitted it, I was quite impressed with his speed and skills and that he didn't drain the tank first...

 

[Ghost1951]

Natural selection has probably taken that 'guy who does mots' by now.

 

[sjpt]

helped him stop his car becoming a fie bomb and wife cremation machine.

Well done ... or did you interrupt his carefully laid plans?

 

[Az.]

Idiots will kill themselves.

If only that was true... In reality idiots rarely face consequences of their actions. It is everybody else who is paying the bill.

 

[Ghost1951]

If only that was true... In reality idiots rarely face consequences of their actions. It is everybody else who is paying the bill.

Yes - we brought in cradle to grave income support and developed s system where feckless people could have their children paid for. There are places I could take you too where multi generational wefareism is rife.

 

[portals]

Natural selection has probably taken that 'guy who does mots' by now.

He ran a successful family garage business for decades before he retired, was well known respected local guy, probably he knew what he was doing.

The Rover had in interesting demise, it got one more MOT however one evening putting fuel in the rover, it was really really long car with the bumpers so in smaller forecourts (old Esso station on Great Western Rd Kelvinbridge, tiny forecourt, now Tescos and flats) like you used to get it was left at a bit of an angle, when I left and tried to start it the key snapped when I turned it, left with plastic fob in hand and key stuck in ignition...

Went in to shop to tell woman that car was stuck, all I could do was get a push from other drivers to push it back off forecourt in to corner parking with some careful steering. 3 guys lined up pushing bonnet, I'm hanging in door pushing too with right hand on wheel hoping to steer it enough in to parking spaces where I came in.

Then the steering lock engaged before we got it even 1m, now it's stuck, can't go forward or will hit the newspaper display, can't go back as front will catch pump. Stuck. I said I'd get a recovery truck but would be morning, woman not best pleased said she would call her boss. I jokingly asked her if she new anyone who could break a steering lock? Dude in shorts and t-shirt who was in queue came over and said he'd take a look...

Dude went to his boot and pulled out a long bit of wood carved out at certain points. He spent probably 15mins cursing and sweating trying to break the steering lock then he got it, then he pulled out wires and messed about with fuse box, long story short he got it started and showed me the two wires to short. His immediate advice was to drive it close and leave it, you've got a few miles most before battery dies.

Was lovely evening though and still plenty light and I was still quite young so I drove it home to BBriggs, no radio or indicators though ;-)

Got a scrappy in Maryhill to take it for free so only had to drive it there on a Sat afternoon, charged battery, was only approx 4 mile trip via back roads, what could go wrong? Rain, so car had basic power, most of the other circuits were dead so no wipers, headlights, heater etc. Not a problem for first couple miles then it started to steam up. Then funny enough it started overheating. Had to break drivers/passengers windows so we could see. Limped it within an inch of it's life to the scrappy, there was a hill to get in to the yard, took 3 runs as I couldn't see for rain, condensation and steam from engine, head stuck out window.

Got a sarcastic round of applause from scrappy guys when finally got it in to yard.

Dude that hot wired car was probably younger than me and had cpl of facial slash scars, he would only take a can of coke, said he user to be a 'bad boy' but was now a reformed character, was too scared to ask why he had the breaker in boot and I'm sure he did tell me why but cannot remember.

 

[lenny]

Aviva Research Highlights Lithium Battery Fire Risk Across Business Sector
"In a survey of 501 UK businesses, 54% of respondents had experienced an incident, with 36% reporting they had experienced a lithium-ion battery overheating. One in five businesses (19%) had experienced a device or battery sparking and 17% had experienced smoking. Alarmingly, around one in eight respondents had experienced fires (13%) or explosions (12%) in the workplace."

Aviva Research Highlights Lithium Battery Fire Risk Across Business Sector

Aviva research reveals the risks of lithium-ion batteries in the workplace. Learn about the dangers of sparking, fires, and explosions and how businesses are affected.

insurance-edge.net

 

[eas2lv]

Just over half of businesses who had experienced an incident avoid overcharging (52%), use genuine compatible chargers (51%) or follow manufacturer guidelines when disposing of used or damaged lithium-ion batteries (56%).

What kind of business are these? 44% do not dispose Li batteries properly and admit it openly in a survey!

 

[lenny]

Government publishes research report into e-bike battery safety

Government publishes research report into e-bike battery safety

The Government has published new independent research into the safety of e-bike and e-scooter lithium-ion batteries, chargers and e-bike conversion kits.

www.gov.uk

 

[AntonyC]

I've only skimmed the executive summary but its concluding remarks include: "WMG believes that the unacceptably high level of PLEV fires can be reduced over time. There is, however, no quick fix, due to the large number of products already in the hands of consumers", and the section on mitigation talks of "design measures... to prevent, minimise or slow down propagation".

At first sight that's disappointing as the focus seems restricted to controlling fire rather than influencing its consequences. If only perfect batteries were sold it would take around a decade for ebike fires to fall by 90% due to their long service life. On present trends the problem of products already in the field will be the more urgent one for some years and needs to be tackled specifically, I think mainly through public information. In that context the Lithium-ion Battery Safety Bill as well as being flawed is a distraction.

The volatility of Li-Ion means that perfect batteries also need public information in addition to the five design aims. Breakdown prior to TR begins at about the melting point of a beeswax candle yet people load their thrashed MTBs into sun-drenched cars and go for drinks. Short of elaborate active cooling there's only so much a practical battery case can achieve but the message isn't getting through.

The 'controlling fire' line of thinking misses a few opportunities in battery design too. For example some BMSs have a buzzer or sounder to wirelessly locate an individual battery in a hire fleet. One characteristic that makes li-ion more dangerous is how fast fires develop. If the BMS sounded a warning at 70 degrees C or earlier it could provide valuable time in which to react but AFAIK none do, even though the hardware is already pretty much there.

I hope the Report takes a broader view but like me many will only get as far as the Summary.

 

[eas2lv]

The 'controlling fire' line of thinking misses a few opportunities in battery design too. For example some BMSs have a buzzer or sounder to wirelessly locate an individual battery in a hire fleet. One characteristic that makes li-ion more dangerous is how fast fires develop. If the BMS sounded a warning at 70 degrees C or earlier it could provide valuable time in which to react but AFAIK none do, even though the hardware is already pretty much there.

I hope the Report takes a broader view but like me many will only get as far as the Summary.

They go into such details in the body of the report and do, in particular, mention the suitability of mandating audible alarms in battery packs. Apparently some Chinese regulations already require them the China.

"WMG suggests that OPSS investigate the feasibility and practicality of audible alarms in PLEV batteries, which would sound in case of detection of thermal runaway. The circuit for the alarm would be active at all times, unless the power consumption of the circuit created a risk of deep-discharge of the battery."

 

[eas2lv]

"WMG suggests that the UK government, when developing legislation concerning the right of the consumer to repair a product, or to have it repaired by a third party, should consider restricting these rights when applied to PLEVs containing Lithiumion batteries. This restriction should also apply to the right to convert a conventional bicycle into an e-bike, using a conversion kit. "

OMG!

 

[AntonyC]

It's still a big concern that the most digestible outcome doesn't point out the most pressing problem even if it's outside their remit. Their recommendations have to cope with the legacy situation so it's on the table.

I'm glad audible alarms are in but directed venting doesn't seem to be. As for repair and conversion, Lithium-ion ebike batteries are hazardous and generally portable. I think that makes them individual consumer goods and it seems inescapable that electrical protection based on peak ratings and anti-tamper measures has had its day, something modern modelling BMSs address and that the report mentions.

Proper protection would prevent electrical problems with overload and overcharging, unintended use, conversions, DIY repairs, tampering and charger compatability, and technically a battery doesn't need either comms or a built-in 'charger' in order to manage charging or fast charging. If they can recommend mandating other gubbins why not this? Life would be simpler and I think that would boost ebike sales.

 

[Woosh]

I've only skimmed the executive summary but its concluding remarks include: "WMG believes that the unacceptably high level of PLEV fires can be reduced over time. There is, however, no quick fix, due to the large number of products already in the hands of consumers", and the section on mitigation talks of "design measures... to prevent, minimise or slow down propagation".

At first sight that's disappointing as the focus seems restricted to controlling fire rather than influencing its consequences. If only perfect batteries were sold it would take around a decade for ebike fires to fall by 90% due to their long service life. On present trends the problem of products already in the field will be the more urgent one for some years and needs to be tackled specifically, I think mainly through public information. In that context the Lithium-ion Battery Safety Bill as well as being flawed is a distraction.

The volatility of Li-Ion means that perfect batteries also need public information in addition to the five design aims. Breakdown prior to TR begins at about the melting point of a beeswax candle yet people load their thrashed MTBs into sun-drenched cars and go for drinks. Short of elaborate active cooling there's only so much a practical battery case can achieve but the message isn't getting through.

The 'controlling fire' line of thinking misses a few opportunities in battery design too. For example some BMSs have a buzzer or sounder to wirelessly locate an individual battery in a hire fleet. One characteristic that makes li-ion more dangerous is how fast fires develop. If the BMS sounded a warning at 70 degrees C or earlier it could provide valuable time in which to react but AFAIK none do, even though the hardware is already pretty much there.

I hope the Report takes a broader view but like me many will only get as far as the Summary.

It will take a generation to eliminate battery fires.

 

[Ghost1951]

Government publishes research report into e-bike battery safety

Government publishes research report into e-bike battery safety

The Government has published new independent research into the safety of e-bike and e-scooter lithium-ion batteries, chargers and e-bike conversion kits.

www.gov.uk

PLEV battery safety research: executive summary and conclusions

www.gov.uk

 

[Ghost1951]

It's still a big concern that the most digestible outcome doesn't point out the most pressing problem even if it's outside their remit. Their recommendations have to cope with the legacy situation so it's on the table.

I'm glad audible alarms are in but directed venting doesn't seem to be. As for repair and conversion, Lithium-ion ebike batteries are hazardous and generally portable. I think that makes them individual consumer goods and it seems inescapable that electrical protection based on peak ratings and anti-tamper measures has had its day, something modern modelling BMSs address and that the report mentions.

Proper protection would prevent electrical problems with overload and overcharging, unintended use, conversions, DIY repairs, tampering and charger compatability, and technically a battery doesn't need either comms or a built-in 'charger' in order to manage charging or fast charging. If they can recommend mandating other gubbins why not this? Life would be simpler and I think that would boost ebike sales.

If this level of scrutiny had been applied to wiring our houses to the electric grid or piping explosive gas into our homes, we would all be without electric power and heating.

Many systems and products are prone to dangerous abuse.
Three men were arrested after the incident referenced above and charged with manslaughter.

Arrests after boy, 7, and man died in Newcastle house blast

Police arrest three men on suspicion of manslaughter and the production of a Class B drug.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[guerney]

They go into such details in the body of the report and do, in particular, mention the suitability of mandating audible alarms in battery packs. Apparently some Chinese regulations already require them the China.

"WMG suggests that OPSS investigate the feasibility and practicality of audible alarms in PLEV batteries, which would sound in case of detection of thermal runaway. The circuit for the alarm would be active at all times, unless the power consumption of the circuit created a risk of deep-discharge of the battery."

While it remains legal to do so, I'll get aound to assembling my always-on if above Low Voltage Cutoff battery overheat alarm, I think I might have all the bits.

"The circuit for the alarm would be active at all times, unless the power consumption of the circuit created a risk of deep-discharge of the battery."

They should have also recommended an alarm and cutoff at low voltage, to prevent deep-discharge of the battery, not because of fire but to protect ebiker wallets.

 

[guerney]

This restriction should also apply to the right to convert a conventional bicycle into an e-bike, using a conversion kit. "

OMG!

I'm staring to hate those WMG dudes. Wanna buy my converted bike? One careful rider.