Battery Fires

[Woosh]

You don't need to make up the figures. The number of ebikes is estimated by the Bicycle Association to be to be 550,000 and the fires caused by ebikes in 2023 were 181.

The absolute risk is thus actually five times less than your equation, 1:3038.

To calculate simple statistics, you need to establish first a steady state. Otherwise, you will have to adopt one of the 4 standardised methods. One of those is the bayesian theorem which is most used nowadays but it's complex. The simplest steady state is one year, number of fires / number of bikes sold, both for 1 year.

 

[Ghost1951]

To calculate simple statistics, you need to establish first a steady state. Otherwise, you will have to adopt one of the 4 standardised methods. One of those is the bayesian theorem which is most used nowadays but it's complex. The simplest steady state is one year, number of fires / number of bikes sold, both for 1 year.

That is OBVIOUSLY wrong unless you assume that bikes are discarded after one year and that only new bikes are around. How could that even be suggested? The bicycle Association claim there are 550,000 ebikes in use.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

There were three deaths in 2023 caused in every case by people who left batteries charging overnight in their homes.

No there wasn't - there was 11 reported to the OPSS for starters, not including all the fires where there were no fatalities and the ones where they weren't reported to OPSS

eta
OPSS says 11 but this says 10

Fires in e-bikes and e-scooters – 2022 and 2023

www.gov.uk

"It must be noted that the number of fatalities/casualties covers only instances where that information was specifically disclosed to OPSS, so this might be an under-estimate."

 

[Woosh]

That is OBVIOUSLY wrong unless you assume that bikes are discarded after one year and that only new bikes are around. How could that even be suggested? The bicycle Association claim there are 550,000 ebikes in use.

Bikes are discarded after 10 years. You can do the same year after year and calculate standard deviation and p if you like, the risk is around 0.2% and preventable.

2 per thousand, sorry

 

[saneagle]

They had a section showing the most wanted people in the country with wanted posters. Most of them did not look that white British though of course there were some.

I remember noticing that too, and so did my racist girlfriend.

Bear in mind that it was allowed to be racist in those days, so please don't blame her. I remember her delight when she found a Little Black Sambo book in a jumble sale. She bought it, and used to read out passages from it, which were so bad that they were forbidden even then. I can remember some quotes from it, but if I were to reproduce them here, I'd have the police knocking at my door.

Little Black Sambo was a prescribed book for primary school reading when I was learning to read. I can still remember the story about when he turned the tigers to butter. I think that book came after "Janet and John", which is probably also illegal these days. It had phrases like, "Look John, look. See the ball, John. See the ball" and "One, two, three. Three little kittens. See the kittens in the basket. See the kittens play in the basket". Anybody remember it? Absolutely shameful!

 

[guerney]

We don't know that, but even if it happens it will have no effect on private users. They'll just carry on breaking the law, using cells which will still be freely and legally on sale.
.

I shall still procure my own high spec cells and build my own battery packs.

What we don't know won't keep @Nealh out of jail. How would his poor TSDZ2 cope? @saneagle would break him out, if he hasn't been jailed for repairing his ebike too. This forum as we know it will be driven underground like the A-Team, hosted somewhere on the somewhat untrackable Dark Web.

 

[guerney]

I think it would have been a reasonable assumption that some concern would be voiced after making this statement, on a forum like this.

Unfortunately for those competent system builders out there, legislators have to consider the LCD which means the scope to design and build one’s own ebike system (not unlike chemists building and setting off their own fireworks in public spaces) will eventually become illegal.

It's really quite simple. She, like most other professionals in the eBike industry do not want to be in the firing line if they dare to disagree with an individuals comments.

There are currently only two companies from the industry with a wealth of experience that are willing to put a point of view here. There is even a suggestion in this thread that it would be a good idea to disrupt an event I am hosting, free of charge to everyone, because I have an opinion that is not the same as everyone else's on the forum.

If you do not find my comments interesting, thought provoking or informative, and would prefer that I stop posting and advertising here, I am very happy to oblige. Before I go though, please consider that advertisers help to fund a forum that gives everyone the ability to discuss. I dont expect or indeed want people to agree with everything I say but can we be a little less vindictive?

All the best, David

I don't see that anyone has been vindictive. I do however see a lack of engagement and quoting of verifiable facts politely requested. The opinions of DIYers are as important as yours.

We are members of LEVA EU, Annick is the general secretary and a freind.

We have fought many battles together including trying to stop the anti dumping measures, pushing for the use of throttles and questioning whether or not the Machinery Directive is necessary.

She is anti the control of the industry by the big players, and very vocal constructing strong arguments.

If there are questions Pedelecs members would like me to put to her regarding battery safety regulation, I’d be very happy to assist.

All the best, David

Does she read her email?

People – LEVA-EULEVA-EU

leva-eu.com

 

[saneagle]

People – LEVA-EULEVA-EU

leva-eu.com

That's very worrying. They all have degrees and qualifications in marketing and political science. No mechanical or electrical engineering degrees. They probably understand as much about how ebikes work as my cat did before he died.

 

[flecc]

That's very worrying. They all have degrees and qualifications in marketing and political science. No mechanical or electrical engineering degrees. They probably understand as much about how ebikes work as my cat did before he died.

What about:

Bram Rotthier

Bram Rotthier (B) is LEVA-EU’s technical director and board member.
As a technical engineer, his objective within LEVA-EU is to build a bridge between members and technical regulations.

He is also active in standardization and in the Motorcycle Working Group.

Bram is Head of Department Energy Technology at Odisee University of Applied Sciences.

Languages: Dutch, English, French and German.
.

 

[Ghost1951]

I remember noticing that too, and so did my racist girlfriend.

Bear in mind that it was allowed to be racist in those days, so please don't blame her. I remember her delight when she found a Little Black Sambo book in a jumble sale. She bought it, and used to read out passages from it, which were so bad that they were forbidden even then. I can remember some quotes from it, but if I were to reproduce them here, I'd have the police knocking at my door.

Little Black Sambo was a prescribed book for primary school reading when I was learning to read. I can still remember the story about when he turned the tigers to butter. I think that book came after "Janet and John", which is probably also illegal these days. It had phrases like, "Look John, look. See the ball, John. See the ball" and "One, two, three. Three little kittens. See the kittens in the basket. See the kittens play in the basket". Anybody remember it? Absolutely shameful!

I remember the line, 'John - see the aeroplanes.'

That was the best bit. The rest was tedious. I perked up when I saw an 'aeroplane' or two.


I don't have any desire whatsoever to return to the time when people were treated badly because of their racial origin. I think both you and I have 'foreign ancestry - I certainly have - though it was more than a hundred and twenty years ago when two of my great grandparents came here from Italy.

What I am interested in is how people behave, and integrate, and I condemn attempts to disguise the incidence of bad behaviour among some groups. People who migrate to America almost entirely celebrate their new American identity. They integrate as rapidly as they can. The French encourage / insist on integration - actually outlawing the flaunting of alien dress codes or demands for special religious consideration. Here we have encouraged the exact opposite.

 

[Ghost1951]

No there wasn't - there was 11 reported to the OPSS for starters, not including all the fires where there were no fatalities and the ones where they weren't reported to OPSS

eta
OPSS says 11 but this says 10

Fires in e-bikes and e-scooters – 2022 and 2023

www.gov.uk

"It must be noted that the number of fatalities/casualties covers only instances where that information was specifically disclosed to OPSS, so this might be an under-estimate."

Interesting data.

Yes - The figure I gave was for London I googled the subject and got an answer that only included the London data. * I had asked about the UK.

*This assertion is also based on a google search.

 

[Ghost1951]

Re Peter's correction to my 2023 battery fire deaths assertion, I have gone back and edited three posts that I have found where I posted the wrong figure.

I didn't alter the original assertion but posted a note at the bottom saying it was wrong and giving the correct number which I understand is 11 deaths.

 

[lenny]

Legal obligations for protest organisers

"You do not need permission from the police to protest. The Human Rights Act and Articles 10 and 11 of the ECHR mean that the police have a legal obligation to facilitate your protest. When the police are deciding how to police a protest, they should be trying their best to allow everyone to protest.

Instead, you sometimes have a legal obligation to notify the police when you are organising a protest march."

How to organise a protest - Liberty

What are the rules for organising a protest? Do I have to tell the police? Do I have to pay?

www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk

 

[saneagle]

What about:

Bram Rotthier

Bram Rotthier (B) is LEVA-EU’s technical director and board member.
As a technical engineer, his objective within LEVA-EU is to build a bridge between members and technical regulations.

He is also active in standardization and in the Motorcycle Working Group.

Bram is Head of Department Energy Technology at Odisee University of Applied Sciences.

Languages: Dutch, English, French and German.
.

OK, so a degree in languages teaches him about ebikes. Perhaps he could help the guys on this forum get their old Panasonic batteries from the German forum. At least he'll be able to tell anyone the search string, even if he doesn't know what they're for.

Here he is on a so called solar powered motorbike - really?? Perhaps he thinks that thick sweaters work as lenses to harvest vast swathes of sunlight, or, worst still, his language ability is as good as his technical knowledge and failed to let him understand the difference between a solar panel and a battery:

New solar-powered motorcycle revealed during 'thick sweater day'

Source: HLN The eighteenth annual ‘thick sweater day’ was celebrated on February 17th 2022. Originally taking shape as a response to the Kyoto protocol, schools reduced their heating for one day – encouraging pupils and staff to wrap up extra warm in an effort to reduce carbon emissions for the...

leva-eu.com

 

[flecc]

OK, so a degree in languages teaches him about ebikes. Perhaps he could help the guys on this forum get their old Panasonic batteries from the German forum. At least he'll be able to tell anyone the search string, even if he doesn't know what they're for.

Here he is on a so called solar powered motorbike - really?? Perhaps he thinks that thick sweaters work as lenses to harvest vast swathes of sunlight, or, worst still, his language ability is as good as his technical knowledge and failed to let him understand the difference between a solar panel and a battery:

New solar-powered motorcycle revealed during 'thick sweater day'

Source: HLN The eighteenth annual ‘thick sweater day’ was celebrated on February 17th 2022. Originally taking shape as a response to the Kyoto protocol, schools reduced their heating for one day – encouraging pupils and staff to wrap up extra warm in an effort to reduce carbon emissions for the...

leva-eu.com

"e-motorcycle, powered by a solar-power charged battery."
.

 

[saneagle]

"e-motorcycle, powered by a solar-power charged battery."
.

This is the difference between an engineer and a cunning linguist. The engineer would say that the bike is powered by a battery. The bike has no idea and doesn't care whether the sun is out or not, as it has no solar panels of its own.

You can just as easily argue that your ebike is nuclear powered if you live in North Wales or Dungerness.

All my summer electricity comes from solar panels. Does that mean I should tell everyone that the cadence sensors on my bikes are solar powered?

You could also argue that everything you and me have and do, is solar powered, since all our energy comes from the sun except that generated by nuclear power stations, which probably never comes near us.

 

[Az.]

is worth pointing out how uncommon our position is.

Yes, of course. Brits do things differently to entire world. It goes without saying. I am just pointing out that it doesn't make much sense.

Why it is OK to sell illegal bikes and illegal scooters with a note "it is illegal to use on road" and it is illegal to sell guns at Tesco? We can always add a note "it is against the law to shoot corrupted politicians and their lawyers".

In my humble opinion cyclists should be involved in writing legislation, not those who want to make money on cyclists.

 

[flecc]

In my humble opinion cyclists should be involved in writing legislation, not those who want to make money on cyclists.

They are, but they are not the only voice and opinion. Nor are cyclists and e-bikers of one opinion, very far from it as all cycling forums show.

And you were commenting on the sale of e-scooters. Should cyclists make e-scooter law? Should vested interests alone make any law? I think not.
.

 

[nigelbb]

I have no time for protecting people who are not either simple minded or children.

People should protect themselves.

It is people like you that caused the death of Jordan Lyon in Wigan when two PCSOs failed to enter a pond to save him and his sister who were in the pond struggling. They stood by and watched him drown; watched while two OAPs entered the water and saved his sister and tried to save him. They were so steeped in the Precautionary Principle and Health and Safety garbage that they were unable to act.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/sep/21/1

The same thing killed children at the Ariana Grande bombing when no one from the emergency services would enter the building while people - mostly little girls bled to death and could have been saved.

The obsession with health and safety is a total blight on our society and any sense that people have agency and responsibility for what they do.

This article is over 17 years old!!! Surely you can find a more recent example to support your premise of an obsession with health and safety as a total blight on our society?

 

[Ghost1951]

This article is over 17 years old!!! Surely you can find a more recent example to support your premise of an obsession with health and safety as a total blight on our society?

Not at all. Does an obvious truth need to be supported by something that happened yesterday?

I think not.

Instructions given to police and emergency health personnel right now involve them protecting themselves above all else. Many of the wounded at the Ariana Grande bombing were left unhelped by the official emergency responders after the explosion, while injured but mobile survivors tended to them. Some of the victims were allowed to bleed to death by ambulance workers who were waiting outside.

I was brought up by a family all of whom that were of age, had served in WW2 including my mother - though her 'action' was as a radio operator. They were well versed in knowing what there duty was when courage was needed.

That original article let's remind ourselves referred to people employed as PCSOs who stood and watched two children in a pond a few feet deep drowning, while OAP fishermen waded in and fished out one of them. The other drowned. The health and safety obsession in the public sector is a nightmare.