Approved ebike list?

I don't wish to start more hares running on the legal/illegal debate, as that seems to have been done to death. This is aimed fairly and squarely at those who wish to own and ride an electric bicycle, as approved under UK law. Those (like me) who are content to ride an unapproved ebike may want to not bother getting hot under the collar about this by reading further................

 

My reason for raising this topic is that this morning I was stopped by a local lady outside our village shop who asked about my bike. She felt that an electric bike was just what she needed to get around and asked if I could give her some advice on bikes that fell within her fairly modest budget. I agreed I'd do some looking around for her and pass on some suggestions. On getting home I decided I was a bit reluctant to advise that she buy a bike that I didn't know for sure was approved, as I believe that, despite my own bike being unapproved, I have a duty of care to only suggest models that are actually known to be legally classed as bicycles.

 

Clearly there are a lot of budget ebikes coming on to the market at the moment, many seemingly offering really good value. How can we be sure, as potential buyers, or as someone who is asked to advise a potential buyer, that what we are considering purchasing is actually a bicycle under UK law?

 

We know that to be legal an ebike needs to either have been shown to comply with EN15194 and therefore have a Type Approval certificate, or it needs to comply with UK SI 1168 and UK SI 1176 (which requires testing to BS 1727 :1971).

 

I've spent a couple of hours looking at adverts for budget ebikes and have been surprised as to how few clearly state the basis for their claim for being legal, which leads me to suspect that a significant number may not be.

 

I believe that it would be very helpful if there were a list, even an ad hoc one on here, that gave the make and model of all the ebikes that are known to be approved, together with a note as to which of the two sets of regulations they are approved under.

 

Better still would be if all ebike vendors clearly stated in their adverts, as some already do, the approval basis for their bikes, with copies of either a Type Approval certificate or a BS 1727:1971 motor power test and battery voltage certificate for their bikes.

 

What do others think? Should vendors be a bit clearer about their products, or are we mainly content to leave things a little grey?

I think that this is an excellent idea.

 

From the recent discussions, it is clear that there are consequences to owning a machine which is not classed as a bicycle. Some are content to use them, others are not, but we should be aware of exactly what it is that we are buying so that we don't inadvertently put ourselves in a difficult position.

 

I'm sure that all of the reputable manufacturers and retailers will agree and come forth with the appropriate test certificates and accompanying documentation.

 

Just out of interest, does anyone know if my 2008 Kalkhoff Pro Connect is a bicycle? It purports to be a 250Watt 15 MPH assist machine. I'm not sure now after all that has been said.

Edited December 12, 201213 yr by tillson

Worms and cans spring to mind, lol

 

Followed closely by monkeys and barrels

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wonder if all vendors complied with the law, would the product be so appealing to the consumer?

I think we won't know if it matters until a test case is brought to bear. Most things in law aren't black and white, despite the numerous statutes suggesting otherwise.

 

The word "reasonable" is probably the most used (and least defined") word in law and would a judge decide you have made reasonable efforts to meet the spirit of the legislation? I.e. will a judge decide that a 250w motor, 15.5mph top speed, pedelec meets the spirit of the legislation despite the absence of type approval/bs testing?

Just out of interest, does anyone know if my 2008 Kalkhoff Pro Connect is a bicycle? It purports to be a 250Watt 15 MPH assist machine. I'm not sure now after all that has been said.

 

Yes - Kalkhoff hold EN15194 certs for all their pedelecs except the S class (that's a different type approval).

 

The cert can be made invalid if you make a significant change from the specification though - so no using a Mercury Speedict to fool the controller into giving you 25mph assist speed ;-)

My only concern is that I strongly believe customers should be fully informed about what it is they are buying, nothing more.

 

As some here will know, I spent a lot of time a couple of years ago trying to help a chap in Southampton who had, in good faith, bought what had been described to him by the vendor as a UK legal electric bike (even though it looked like a scooter with rudimentary pedals). The police had stopped him and told him it wasn't a bicycle, and I then tried to help him get it through MSVA, but he lost interest and scrapped the bike.

 

Had he been aware that he was actually buying something that was illegal to use in the UK he would have saved himself a lot of money (which he could ill afford) and a lot of hassle.

 

This is, as Tillson rightly says, only about customers being fully informed. If they want to buy something that isn't approved then that is absolutely fine by me, as long as they are doing it with their eyes open.

I think we won't know if it matters until a test case is brought to bear. Most things in law aren't black and white, despite the numerous statutes suggesting otherwise.

 

The word "reasonable" is probably the most used (and least defined") word in law and would a judge decide you have made reasonable efforts to meet the spirit of the legislation? I.e. will a judge decide that a 250w motor, 15.5mph top speed, pedelec meets the spirit of the legislation despite the absence of type approval/bs testing?

 

Unfortunately the "reasonableness test" doesn't apply to breaches of Statute Law. If it did there may not be an issue with this. Also, this wouldn't be heard by a judge, but by the Mags, and they would have clear direction from their clerk on the law in question, so wouldn't have the freedom to bring a "not guilty" verdict, I'm sorry to say.

Just out of interest, does anyone know if my 2008 Kalkhoff Pro Connect is a bicycle? It purports to be a 250Watt 15 MPH assist machine. I'm not sure now after all that has been said.

 

On the basis that it is a legal pedelec in the EU and our forthcoming revision in our law will include all the EU law provisions, if it isn't now by virtue of some technicality, it soon will be. Since there is a discreet blind eye policy currently in force pending the revision, I wouldn't worry too much.

Unfortunately the "reasonableness test" doesn't apply to breaches of Statute Law. If it did there may not be an issue with this. Also, this wouldn't be heard by a judge, but by the Mags, and they would have clear direction from their clerk on the law in question, so wouldn't have the freedom to bring a "not guilty" verdict, I'm sorry to say.

 

Yes you're quite right - my Law tutor was always rapping my knuckles over forgetting statutes are primary authority (my field of work is primarily in employment rights - which is nearly always case law).

I don't wish to start more hares running on the legal/illegal debate, as that seems to have been done to death..............

 

 

Hmmm.....REALLY ?

 

 

 

I have a duty of care to only suggest models that are actually known to be legally classed as bicycles.

 

 

Then in my opinion, if you are that concerned, why not do as most of us do and point the lady in question in the direction of the nearest shop/dealer who has plenty for her to try and choose from and leave the legalities for them to advise on.......then maybe you can chill and sleep better at night....

 

Lynda

BEBA (British Electric Bike Association) has a code of conduct which all members have to adhere to. This includes both retailers and importers/manufacturers. Therefore any bikes sold should through these companies should adhere to current UK laws.

 

The British Electric Bicycle Association

 

Hope this helps.

David

Then in my opinion, if you are that concerned, why not do as most of us do and point the lady in question in the direction of the nearest shop/dealer who has plenty for her to try and choose from and leave the legalities for them to advise on.......then maybe you can chill and sleep better at night....

 

Lynda

 

Yes, I could do that, but the only LBS nearby only (supposedly) stocks a fairly antique model and is openly reluctant to sell even those! Odd place, really.

 

There are a couple of ebike dealers within a reasonable drive and I have emailed them for extra information. The odd thing is that both are a bit vague about the approvals that their bikes have, which raises an element of suspicion in my mind.

 

For some reason I've never seen an ebike with a UK data plate, either, so I suspect that there are now very few that are being approved to the UK regulations. Most legal ebikes are almost certainly being approved under the EU regulations, if for no other reason than the extra power allowed makes such a useful difference. Clearly some vendors do make it clear that their ebikes are approved, with evidence, but unfortunately all of the ones I've seen like this are beyond this ladies budget.

 

I'm pretty sure that what she needs is a crank drive bike, as she lives half way up the steep hill behind the village. Something like one of the Panasonic or Bosch drive bikes would seem ideal, but they are just too expensive at the moment.

On the basis that it is a legal pedelec in the EU and our forthcoming revision in our law will include all the EU law provisions, if it isn't now by virtue of some technicality, it soon will be.

 

 

My slowly improving knowledge on this most depressing aspect of my favourite hobby now perceives that little snippet as a glimmer of hope ?

 

Is that very likely to happen in the near future ? (please say yes )

 

 

Oh, and yes, Jeremy's question is very valid indeed. I live in "Wrinkly Land", (being a Wrinkly myself), so hardly a day goes by without me getting very enthusiastic questions from potential buyers when I'm out on my "nearly" legal pedelec.

 

I'm now quite concerned that I've been spouting duff info, and to people who can ill afford to waste money....

BEBA (British Electric Bike Association) has a code of conduct which all members have to adhere to. This includes both retailers and importers/manufacturers. Therefore any bikes sold should through these companies should adhere to current UK laws.

 

The British Electric Bicycle Association

 

Hope this helps.

David

 

 

 

Thanks very much for that, it was exactly what I was looking for! I didn't realise that BEBA was providing this level of assurance of their members products, but it does make a lot of sense.

Assuming we are accepting that ONLY bikes that comply with either the UK standard OR the EU standard there are a hell of a lot of illegal bikes being used by people on here.

 

Nearly all those with a throttle for starters as they are mainly EU standard (250watt) bikes and that standard does not allow for a throttle at all. Bike must comply with one standard or the other you cant mix and match to suit yourself which is what most suppliers appear to be doing.

 

Not saying this is right or fair but certainly as I see it a matter of fact ?

 

Oh another question if you are sold a bike as UK legal and it isnt and you get prosecuted can you go after the supplier for damages ?

Edited December 12, 201213 yr by GaRRy

Just out of interest, does anyone know if my 2008 Kalkhoff Pro Connect is a bicycle? It purports to be a 250Watt 15 MPH assist machine. I'm not sure now after all that has been said.

 

I sincerely hope that if it turns out to be illegal, you destroy it immediately. Anything else would be sheer hypocrisy and you wouldn't want to be accused of that now, would you?

My slowly improving knowledge on this most depressing aspect of my favourite hobby now perceives that little snippet as a glimmer of hope ?

 

Is that very likely to happen in the near future ? (please say yes )

 

 

Oh, and yes, Jeremy's question is very valid indeed. I live in "Wrinkly Land", (being a Wrinkly myself), so hardly a day goes by without me getting very enthusiastic questions from potential buyers when I'm out on my "nearly" legal pedelec.

 

I'm now quite concerned that I've been spouting duff info, and to people who can ill afford to waste money....

 

 

There is tacit acceptance of the EU EPAC regulations under our obligations as an EU member state, but this hasn't ever been made absolutely clear in law. The main issue is that the government hasn't got around to amending the 1983 statute, so we have this slightly messy situation where two sets of regulations apply at the moment.

 

Like you, I frequently get asked about the bike, and have been quite open about it being home made and unapproved up until now, but this is the first time I've been asked to give advice to someone that I rather think would want to be 100% legal (only based on my impression of her).

BEBA Code of practice:

 

"6. Only market models that meet the current legal requirements."

 

but are they all approved?

Edited December 12, 201213 yr by shemozzle999

It has been said that the law is an ass. Surely it should come as no surprise when people hold the law in contempt. So it would seem that it if someone buys a bike, the onus is on them to determine if it is legal or illegal. Imagine how ridiculous it would be if this principle was extended to everyday life. Suppose you bought a packet of mixed herbs for cooking. It would be your duty to analyse the contents, and do a chemical test for THC in case cannabis was present. Buying talcum powder? It is your duty to do a chemical analysis, in case it is really cocaine. People would starve to death, because with all this testing for illegal substances, they would not have time to eat.

Assuming we are accepting that ONLY bikes that comply with either the UK standard OR the EU standard there are a hell of a lot of illegal bikes being used by people on here.

 

Nearly all those with a throttle for starters as they are mainly EU standard (250watt) bikes and that standard does not allow for a throttle at all. Bike must comply with one standard or the other you cant mix and match to suit yourself which is what most suppliers appear to be doing.

 

Not saying this is right or fair but certainly as I see it a matter of fact ?

 

Oh another question if you are sold a bike as UK legal and it isnt and you get prosecuted can you go after the supplier for damages ?

 

I share this view, I think there are a very large number of illegal ebikes around, as many vendors have been rather lax about ensuring that the products they are selling are approved and legal. They aren't committing an offence by selling unapproved ebikes, the offence is only committed if a buyer uses the bike in a publicly accessible place.

 

There is recompense via Trading Standards. We did this in the Southampton case, but by the time Trading Standards got hold of the vendor he'd shut up shop and moved elsewhere.

 

If you were prosecuted, then you wouldn't be able to claim damages from the vendor, but you might be able to take action against them for misrepresentation in their advertising. However, my recent experience of trawling adverts shows that very few vendors are clear about the legality of their bikes, they are leaving the checking up to customers, under caveat emptor...............

Assuming we are accepting that ONLY bikes that comply with either the UK standard OR the EU standard there are a hell of a lot of illegal bikes being used by people on here.

 

Nearly all those with a throttle for starters as they are mainly EU standard (250watt) bikes and that standard does not allow for a throttle at all. Bike must comply with one standard or the other you cant mix and match to suit yourself which is what most suppliers appear to be doing.

 

Not saying this is right or fair but certainly as I see it a matter of fact ?

 

Oh another question if you are sold a bike as UK legal and it isnt and you get prosecuted can you go after the supplier for damages ?

 

The fact is: The industry will be led by the consumer, despite the law, without the customer you dont have a industry, just a load of confusing laws. Most Vendors already know this and are tip-toeing between the shadows to maintain their business and keeping the industry alive.

BEBA Code of practice:

 

"6. Only market models that meet the current legal requirements."

 

but are they approved?

 

 

I'll check this tomorrow, by emailing a few of them who have ebikes that might meet the ladies needs and budget and asking.

It has been said that the law is an ass. Surely it should come as no surprise when people hold the law in contempt. So it would seem that it if someone buys a bike, the onus is on them to determine if it is legal or illegal. Imagine how ridiculous it would be if this principle was extended to everyday life. Suppose you bought a packet of mixed herbs for cooking. It would be your duty to analyse the contents, and do a chemical test for THC in case cannabis was present. Buying talcum powder? It is your duty to do a chemical analysis, in case it is really cocaine. People would starve to death, because with all this testing for illegal substances, they would not have time to eat.

 

It is a bit daft, isn't it?

 

It's a bit like the CB radio fiasco back in the late 70's, when dealers were openly selling products that couldn't be used in the UK. This has been repeated with those selling GoPeds, MiniMotos etc.

 

It's about time we closed this loophole. If something is offered for sale then it should be the vendors responsibility to ensure it can be legally used.

Please see of link below (page 5 onwards) which provides an update of the latest situation. However any changes will not be back dated so any bike legal now will not suddenly become illegal. Although obviously nothing is official regarding what the new laws will be but the forum thread is a good guide to how legislation will probably change. Therefore the best advice is buy a bike which is currently legal i.e. 250 watt motor and assistance up to 25km (15.5mph). Currently independant throttles are legal in the UK up to the legal assistance limit.

 

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/13148-beba-uk-survey-results-executive-summary-7.html