A legal question or two....

[vfr400]

I think we have discussed this scenario some time ago.
The general consensus is if you run your generator on public road, you are carrying out an economic activity that is not authorised on the road - such as 'manufacturing' on the road.
If you stop at a layby and run your generator there then it's OK.
I am still puzzled as there are legal examples of manufacturing on the road such as concrete mixers and refrigerated trucks.
After all, running a generator on the bike is no different to driving a plug in hybrid car or having a solar panel/fuel cell to power your bike.

I think that's an extreme interpretation of the law. It's energy conversion, not manufacturing. You manufacture tangible products. You generate electricity. It's no different from converting the chemicals in your battery into electricity. The start is a chemical substance the end is a different chemical substance plus electrons. There's never been a case brought to court and there never will.

The problem is to find a small enough, light enough and quiet enough generator to do the job. The best are about 9kg and take up quite a bit of space if you leave room for the charger and spare battery.

 

[Craiggor 2]

If manufacturing electric on the road was illegal bicycle lighting dynamos would of been outlawed years ago.

 

[flecc]

If manufacturing electric on the road was illegal bicycle lighting dynamos would of been outlawed years ago.

But as I commented earlier, that isn't for propelling the vehicle. The main stumbling block for generation appears to be using an IC engine to charge the battery while it's in use for propulsion, making it in law an ic vehicle using electrical transmission, or as we often incorrectly abbreviate that, a hybrid.
.

 

[vfr400]

But as I commented earlier, that isn't for propelling the vehicle. The main stumbling block for generation appears to be using an IC engine to charge the battery while it's in use for propulsion, making it in law an ic vehicle using electrical transmission, or as we often incorrectly abbreviate that, a hybrid.
.

That's not what's being suggested. The idea is to use a spare battery, so there is no electrical connection between the bike and the trailer.

 

[flecc]

That's not what's being suggested. The idea is to use a spare battery, so there is no electrical connection between the bike and the trailer.

Yes I was aware some were, but my reply was to someone not discussing that.
.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Thank you for all of your comments. I think I may do it anyway, despite what penalties exist because I don't want to be canned into public transport unnecessarily: Covid-19 risks and all that. So I've just ordered a 250W Bafang Kit, specifically this one (amazon link if allowed):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07W22PJF5/ref=twister_dp_update?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

The only illegal part of that kit is the throttle, which isn't limited to 6km/h... the workaround is to not install the throttle control - or risk bricking the control chip on the motor by using software not approved by the manufacturer to rewite it's firmware, which invalidates the 12 month warranty. I've heard mutterings of a 60 mile range but that's not enough for some of my work related journeys. The seller sends kits from UK, Belgian or Chinese warehouses (mine's arriving from Belgium, hopefully before we crash out of Europe [they only had the 48T kits in the UK, which would have been a 3 day delivery, according to the seller]), depending on the configuration chosen. I chose the 52T version because I'm bringing my ancient folding Dahon Helios back into service... and at my extreme age and total lack of fitness, I can't afford to lose any more teeth whatsoever - I can't pedal up hills even without the added weight of the motor and depleted battery (which will have to go on the pannier, there's no room for it anywhere else). It suddenly struck me that it'd be wonderful if I could charge a second battery in a trailer while exhausting the other one - I can't find details of any fines/sentencing guidelines which might be applicable.

If you stop at a layby and run your generator there then it's OK.

The darn things are so slow to charge: 6 to 8 hours, was hoping to avoid twiddling my thumbs on the side of the road.

Technically, if you're really picky, even a 250W bike is illegal if it doesn't have the sticker or plate.

The Bafang kit isn't supplied with a sticker, but I found two on ebay.

Just look at the way the DfT introduced the 250LPM class to allow throttles on pedelecs while that was still illegal under our EU membership. In fact having looked into it, that remains illegal even though we've left the EU. Obviously the DfT know it but don't care.

Grey areas, I like grey areas...

Fancy being a test case?

Only if the penalties are very very light, or impossible to enforce. It might be a test case for this nutcase.

Cycle on for 40 miles or so (or until shift change) and carry on as you were.

I've never been able to get away with anything. It's because I'm devoid of charm.

The problem is to find a small enough, light enough and quiet enough generator to do the job. The best are about 9kg and take up quite a bit of space if you leave room for the charger and spare battery.

Also, I need pure sine wave generation, to prevent the battery exploding. Maybe this generator:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Instant-Portable-Suitcase-Inverter-Generator/dp/B07XZMFV5H/

p.s. Wow, is that yours? (trailer). Time to get that rivet gun...

If manufacturing electric on the road was illegal bicycle lighting dynamos would of been outlawed years ago.

It's a matter of scale, isn't it? The scale of maximum discomforture through legal means by the State, in order to kill joy.

 

[vfr400]

After I made my trailer, I soon figured out that it would be lighter and more convenient to carry one or two spare batteries with a charger. Batteries are about £200, the same price as a cheap generator. For my project, I already had the generator.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

After I made my trailer, I soon figured out that it would be lighter and more convenient to carry one or two spare batteries with a charger. Batteries are about £200, the same price as a cheap generator. For my project, I already had the generator.

That's great! Do you charge while in motion and have you been stopped while doing so? Were you clapped in irons? I might add some car soundproofing material in mine, it's pretty cheap on ebay, because they make so much of it.

 

[WheezyRider]

Are you sure you want to go for a mid drive? A rear hub may be better.

Range depends mainly on battery size, how hilly your terrain, wind direction and how much input you put in yourself. Do you have a target range?

I don't think you are likely to have any issues charging as you go from a trailer when on the open road. It's only likely to raise questions if going through a built up area and people can hear something. Of course, if you have an accident and someone inspects your vehicle as a result, questions may be asked.

The 6 to 8 hour charging will depend on the battery size and the rating of the charger. A lot of chargers are only 2A and if your battery pack is big enough, it can handle a greater charging rate than that.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Are you sure you want to go for a mid drive? A rear hub may be better.

I did try to source a rear drive before ordering the Bafang mid-drive, but I couldn't find any suppliers in the EU - they all seem to deliver from China (especially at the prices I'm willing to pay), the rear hub drives for 20 inch wheels don't appear to be popular enough for Chinese companies to stock in their shared, regional ebike parts caches. Plus I reasoned that if the torque on the Bafang bent the aluminium frame, I could pull the parts off and onto a normal steel framed mountain bike.

Do you have a target range?

Ideally, the 240 miles between the outskirts of Birmingham to Manchester and back. Beyond the range of any battery I've seen. I don't drive (long story).

It's only likely to raise questions if going through a built up area and people can hear something.

I need a remote switch to turn it off while rolling to a stop while illuminated by flashing lights...

The 6 to 8 hour charging will depend on the battery size and the rating of the charger. A lot of chargers are only 2A and if your battery pack is big enough, it can handle a greater charging rate than that.

I'll see what gets delivered in 20 days or so (10 mile lorry tailbacks at the port will only get longer), then see if there is some ready made charger out there which is capable of rapidly charging the 19.2ah battery pack without making it burst into flames.

 

[vfr400]

That's great! Do you charge while in motion and have you been stopped while doing so? Were you clapped in irons? I might add some car soundproofing material in mine, it's pretty cheap on ebay, because they make so much of it.

Yes I did charge while running. No, I didn't have an encounter with the police. I doubt that the police would be the slightest bit interested. It's a bicycle towing a trailer. The last thing they'd think of was that there was a running generator in there. They wouldn't be able to hear it from a police car unless perhaps if they were stopped. Even if they could figure it out, there's no offence. You might get a few questions, but there's nothing they can do.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Yes I did charge while running. No, I didn't have an encounter with the police. I doubt that the police would be the slightest bit interested. It's a bicycle towing a trailer. The last thing they'd think of was that there was a running generator in there. They wouldn't be able to hear it from a police car unless perhaps if they were stopped. Even if they could figure it out, there's no offence. You might get a few questions, but there's nothing they can do.

I'm going to do it! The legal area is very grey unless I'm hit by a car or lorry (it's always the drivers causing problems, in my experience). Now I need a very light but strong bike trailer capable of carrying a strong ventilated box like yours - is that marine plywood? When the kit eventually gets delivered, I'll be inspired to buy a second battery, although the 1st Jan 2021 Brexit might put a kibosh on tariff free deliveries from China and the EU. The seller informed me this morning that the Belgian warehouse was nervous of tariffs at the UK border, so now my kit is being shipped from China! Precisely what I was desperately trying to avoid! Claimed it'd be a 20 day delivery. Fat chance! So I went a bit beserk and his last message claimed he was sending me the 48T kit with chainwheel from the UK warehouse and a 52T chainwheel from China, and he was "Waiting to hear" from the UK warehouse. Slippery sales-people...

The 6 to 8 hour charging will depend on the battery size and the rating of the charger. A lot of chargers are only 2A and if your battery pack is big enough, it can handle a greater charging rate than that.

Are there any ready made rapid chargers out there for 36V 19.2ah batteries? It's made out of 60 X 3200mAh LG Cells, allegedly. It has a BMC built in. I don't fancy making anything myself; eyesight not great, no soldering skills nor vast knowledge of electronics.

 

[vfr400]

I'm going to do it! The legal area is very grey unless I'm hit by a car or lorry (it's always drivers causing problems). Now I need a very light but strong bike trailer capable of carrying a strong ventilated box like yours - is that marine plywood? When the kit eventually gets delievered, I'll buy a second battery, although the 1st Jan 2021 Brexit might put a kibosh on tariff free deliveries from China and the EU. The seller informed me this morning that the Belgian warehouse was nervous of tariffs, so now my kit is being shipped from China! Precisely what I was desparately trying to avoid! Claimed 20 day delivery. Fat chance! So I went a bit beserk and his last message claimed he was sending me the 48T kit with chainwheel from the UK warehouse and a 52T chainwheel from China, and he was "Waiting to hear" from the UK warehouse. Slippery sales-people...



Are there any ready made rapid chargers out there for 36V 19.2ah batteries? It's made out of 60 X 3200mAh LG Cells, allegedly. It has a BMC built in. I don't fancy making anything myself; eyesight not great, no soldering skills nor vast electronic knowledge.

The charge current depends on the BMS in your battery. Normally, they have a single mosfet rated at 5 amps max. Sometimes there's no separate mosfet, so you can charge as high as the output current within the limit of the cells. General guidance is 0.2c for charging, which would be about 4 amps max.

BMSBattery sell adjustable chargers. They'll set one up for you at 4 amps.

S120 120W LiFePo4/Li-Ion/Lead Acid Battery EBike Charger

S120 120W LiFePo4/Li-Ion/Lead Acid Battery EBike Charger, universal input AC voltage 100~240VAC

bmsbattery.com

 

[Deleted member 33385]

The charge current depends on the BMS in your battery. Normally, they have a single mosfet rated at 5 amps max.

Thank you! I'll prise the battery open when (if) it eventually arrives and have a good look at the BMC circuitry, then do a lot of reading...

 

[WheezyRider]

Thank you! I'll prise the battery open when (if) it eventually arrives and have a good look at the BMC circuitry, then do a lot of reading...

Hopefully the battery pack will come with the max charging current written in the spec sheet.

 

[Woosh]

small 4-stroke petrol inverter generators can give about 600W-1kW output.
If you have not committed your budget, you should look again at a battery system can can be recharged at that rate ie 600W-1kW.
With such system, you only need to run the generator for about 30 minutes to charge the battery for a day's ride.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Yes I did charge while running. No, I didn't have an encounter with the police. I doubt that the police would be the slightest bit interested. It's a bicycle towing a trailer. The last thing they'd think of was that there was a running generator in there. They wouldn't be able to hear it from a police car unless perhaps if they were stopped. Even if they could figure it out, there's no offence. You might get a few questions, but there's nothing they can do.

If you don't mind my asking, what is the generator you are using ? And what is the battery charger using in terms of amps?

 

[Deleted member 33385]

If you have not committed your budget, you should look again at a battery system can can be recharged at that rate ie 600W-1kW.

Good point. I'm unsure of what generator to buy yet, I certainly won't be buying anything else until (if) the ebike kit arrives and is installed, and also works well. The charger which the battery arrives with shouldn't overtax a 800W petrol generator, I don't think, but it would be good to purchase a generator capable of supporting a rapid charger in the first place.

 

[vfr400]

If you don't mind my asking, what is the generator you are using ? And what is the battery charger using in terms of amps?

That was a Kipor 1000w generator - maybe 800w or 900w. the charger is 36v 4 amp 160w. The £200 generator shown in your post #86 would be perfect. I have one like that - 9kg IIRC.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

That was a Kipor 1000w generator - maybe 800w or 900w. the charger is 36v 4 amp 160w. The £200 generator shown in your post #86 would be perfect. I have one like that - 9kg IIRC.

Thanks for that info. I wonder if cost is the only factor in suppliers not shipping rapid chargers, if the batteries are capable of rapid charging? Economies of scale woud ensure a moderate increase in costs, so why not? Surely rapid charging would be a positive selling point? Does rapid charging decrease the working life of the battery? Or there a safety issue?

I might adapt a child bike trailer so I can push my folded bike+charging battery+generator+connecting bar around while shopping... if the box to contain it all can be made light enough.