A legal question or two....

[Jeremy]

From what I can gather the baby four stroke Honda seems to be the quietest thing around in this engine size, but it would be very easy to make the unit very quiet by adding an additional absorption type silencer and enclosing the whole "hybrid power pack" in a well insulated (and ventilated) enclosure, similar to a low noise generator.

The DARPA sponsored military micro generator does exactly this, and it uses a very much noisier core engine - a diesel model aircraft unit.

I haven't yet had a chance to hear one of these small four strokes; they seem to be pretty rare here as far as I can see. I may well do a quick tour of the local garden centres and see if I can persuade them to let me hear one running. I doubt it can be any noisier than the small two stroke strimmer I have, and that is really pretty quiet - the whirling string makes more noise than the engine when you rev it up.

My new Crystalite front wheel and controller arrived today, so I think the rest of this weekend will be taken up with me converting my recumbent. I've deliberately left the rear rack clear of batteries, controller, etc, so that I have space to fit a hybrid power unit once I get the details sorted. Meanwhile I will be working on fine tuning the rest of the bike!

Jeremy

 

[pxr5]

I know of no freely available bikes capable of anywhere near 30 mph other than electric scooters and mopeds which are covered by motor vehicle legislation and require registration, insurance, helmet etc.

i stumbled across this which is what got me flapping the other day about the laws and how confusing they are. this seller claims it is road legal yet at the flick of a switch can do 30mph

Find ROAD LEGAL, ELECTRIC MOPED, ELECTRIC BIKE on eBay within, Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 05-Nov-07 21:55:12 GMT)

 

[flecc]

It appears to have folding pedals in an attempt to make it an electric bike.

Still doesn't qualify though. First of all the pedals have to be practical and fully usable without motor power, they clearly aren't.

Second it obviously exceeds 40 kilos so cannot qualify as a bike.

So what they've said is nonsense, it's a Moped requiring a driving licence, registration, number plates and road tax, insurance and later on, an MOT.
.

 

[Jeremy]

What's really annoying about people who mislead the public in this way is that they are unlikely to be the ones who get caught out - they just move on and start all over again.

This scooter is obviously intended to be registered, it even has the space for a number plate. I doubt that any police officer is going to be in any doubt about it's legality, which will inevitably mean the poor old buyer getting stung for riding it illegally. IIRC, riding without insurance (where it's required by law) carries a pretty hefty penalty, plus the long-term difficulty of ever getting any form of vehicle insurance at a reasonable premium.

It may well be that the machine won't even be able to pass the MSVA test, so might never be able to be made road legal.

Jeremy

 

[Ian]

Check the sellers feedback, a few comments about items not correctly described with one recent purchaser of a different item calling him a scammer.
Sounds dodgy to me,

 

[frank9755]

I usually make a complaint to ebay when I come across listings like this.

Its not helpful for those of us who want to play by the rules (give or take the odd bit of extra speed!) to have products which are blatantly illegal and potentially dangerous being marketed and sold. This is the sort of thing that could invite a backlash leading to more restrictions than otherwise. A bit of self-regulation on the part of the user community could help!

Frank

 

[Jeremy]

A bit of self-regulation on the part of the user community could help!

Absolutely.

My view is that as long as an electrically assisted bike looks and performs broadly like an electrically assisted bike then we're unlikely to attract detailed attention from the law. It seems to me that many bikes/electric kits available already don't comply with the law, either because of their higher power output or their maximum speed. As long as we don't go whizzing about everywhere at 30mph+ I doubt anyone will take the slightest bit of notice of these.

Reading some of the threads on the "endless sphere" forum about people doing speeds of 40mph to 60mph on highly tweaked e-bikes does make me wonder how long it'll be before someone decides to impose tougher regulation though.


Jeremy

 

[Beeping-Sleauty]

Absolutely.

My view is that as long as an electrically assisted bike looks and performs broadly like an electrically assisted bike then we're unlikely to attract detailed attention from the law. It seems to me that many bikes/electric kits available already don't comply with the law, either because of their higher power output or their maximum speed. As long as we don't go whizzing about everywhere at 30mph+ I doubt anyone will take the slightest bit of notice of these.

Reading some of the threads on the "endless sphere" forum about people doing speeds of 40mph to 60mph on highly tweaked e-bikes does make me wonder how long it'll be before someone decides to impose tougher regulation though.


Jeremy

Who are these crazy people...?, as mentioned previously, it only takes a few of these lunatics to get themselves in the papers and that is how the e-bike will be viewed by the public at large, with all the attendant police attention and the smear on the concept,

reminds me of the kamikaze cyclists trying to set speed records down the side of a mountain, you can see some on YouTube, one guy was travelling at well over £100 mph
see the vid here:

YouTube - Mountain bike speed test



yikes....
beeps

 

[Jeremy]

Unfortunately the craze for "tweaking" ebikes has hit video sites, like "You Tube" with the inevitable consequence that a few people are now trying to build "ultimate" electric bikes.

For an example, check out one of the UK's electric bike dealers videos:
YouTube - 83V BMX New Puma Motor and Controller

A quick Google on "knoxie" will reveal more fairly insane stuff, he seems to be the "test rider" for Team Hybrid.

Jeremy

Edited to add: Here's another video from this pretty insane dealer: High Power Electric BMX 72V

 

[pxr5]

lol funny video.
i just thought id check about that moped glad i did, some people hey they'd sell their own granny's.

 

[pxr5]

Unfortunately the craze for "tweaking" ebikes has hit video sites, like "You Tube" with the inevitable consequence that a few people are now trying to build "ultimate" electric bikes.

For an example, check out one of the UK's electric bike dealers videos:
YouTube - 83V BMX New Puma Motor and Controller

A quick Google on "knoxie" will reveal more fairly insane stuff, he seems to be the "test rider" for Team Hybrid.

Jeremy

Edited to add: Here's another video from this pretty insane dealer: High Power Electric BMX 72V

if you could go up hills that easily with the standard legal bikes i think id actually go and buy one but gentle pedal assist and no hill climbing makes it all seem a bit pointless. you need electric power to push you along faster than 15mph so your legs don't have to and you want the power to get up hills, these electric bikes on sale just have an electric shaver strapped to them.

 

[flecc]

if you could go up hills that easily with the standard legal bikes i think id actually go and buy one but gentle pedal assist and no hill climbing makes it all seem a bit pointless. you need electric power to push you along faster than 15mph so your legs don't have to and you want the power to get up hills, these electric bikes on sale just have an electric shaver strapped to them.

But our UK/EU legal limit for power assist is 15.5 mph, so there's not much point in loads of excess power and the useless short range that results.

There are legal bikes which climb 7% with minimal assistance at 14 mph and 14% at 9 mph, taking care of the majority of hills for most people. They'll also handle the odd 20% with moderate help, so are able to go almost anywhere.

It's a myth that legal bikes can't climb at all, it's mainly the odd one that's overgeared for illegal higher speeds that fail on hills if not given loads of help.
.

 

[pxr5]

But our UK/EU legal limit for power assist is 15.5 mph, so there's not much point in loads of excess power and the useless short range that results.

There are legal bikes which climb 7% with minimal assistance at 14 mph and 14% at 9 mph, taking care of the majority of hills for most people. They'll also handle the odd 20% with moderate help, so are able to go almost anywhere.

It's a myth that legal bikes can't climb at all, it's mainly the odd one that's overgeared for illegal higher speeds that fail on hills if not given loads of help.
.

so how do you know a good eBike from another? im looking at loads on ebay here and i haven't got a clue what im looking for, except that it MUST be no more than a 200w motor. i need a bike that can do 7 miles a day or little more, and basically handle 15mph and get me up hills, but then i wouldnt wanna get something that really has very little assistance and leaves you helping the motor instead of the other way around.

thanks

 

[flecc]

That's the problem question pxr5, created by the silly situation where to indicate legality, all the manufacturers quote 200 or 250 watts, neither connected in any way with the motor's actual power, or it's gearing..

And that's where this forum comes in, and the help given from one member to another.

In fact for hills up to 10% (1 in 10) almost all e-bikes are fine, many needing little or no help on those. Only the Torq with it's motor geared for speed rather than hill climbing demands a real effort from the rider on 10%.

Of course the rider's weight has a big effect, and my comments relate to my 70 kilos/ 11 stones. An 18 stone rider would fare badly by comparison, a fit 9 stone one would gain considerably from that low weight.

For steeper hills there's a choice:

1) Go for a lower powered bike with low motor gearing giving about 13 mph and reasonable climb ability for hills a bit steeper (Powacycle for example).

2) Similar but with higher power for even steeper hills (Powabyke for example).

3) Choose a drive through the gears model like the Kalkhoff Agattu or Gazelle Easy Glider which will climb almost anything, but only slowly by using low gears.

3) Opt for a high power hub motor bike to get up quite steep hills by sheer force. (eZee F series or Quando for example).

I can't help much with the ebay stuff, mostly assembled from the Chinese "Pick a Mix" parts bin, usually average or low power, and often heavy, sapping the power.
.

 

[Beeping-Sleauty]

Hi pxr5,

this looks like a cue for me......

I can't help much with the ebay stuff, mostly assembled from the Chinese "Pick a Mix" parts bin, usually average or low power, and often heavy, sapping the power.
.

can't speak for all the bikes on eBay, but i own a couple of cheaper spangly chinky mock-ups, my first was the Eco-Brand Whirlwind, this is a 250w 36v 8a steel framed 40kg MTB, i've had it 16 months, there is a aluminium version called the Samurai,

Find Battery Powered Bicycle/Electric Bike on eBay within, Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 14-Nov-07 18:12:29 GMT)

as long as you keep the pedals turning this bike will climb all hills at 9mph, the batteries are SLA, heavy, but dependable & cheap, it cruises under its' own power at 16-17 mph and has a 30 mile range if you pedal,

This particular machine has been on eBay for about 18 months, have seen a dozen dealers come and go, but the bike still keeps coming up, spares are cheap, batteries typically £60.

these sell new at around £300, i've done 3,500 miles on mine, it's big, and it's quite bouncy, maybe i'm just lucky but it has never let me down, i upgraded the tyres and the chainwheel.

i also have the Black Hawk, which i bought for my partner to join me, similar bike, but a better build, 200w brushed motor, this is not quite as perky, still climbs all hills, top speed 15mph, more upright Dutch style, very comfortable ride, again about £300 new, popular model and been on eBay for about 18 months thru various UK dealers.

Find MOUNTAINBIKE - ELECTRIC BICYCLE BIKE CYLCE E-BIKE on eBay within, Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 15-Nov-07 19:44:55 GMT)

i'd recommend either of these bikes if, ...you like a big bike, ...you actually like pedalling, ...you're happy with the possibility the bike may only last a couple of years, ...you don't want to spend too much money.

Normally i try to buy the best of anything that i need to actually to purchase, but as a lifelong cyclist i wasn't sure i would like the ebike and so, spent as little as i could,

i'd be happy to answer all questions,

beeps 'the tight-wad'

 

[Deleted member 33385]

I realise this is a very old thread, and I hope nobody minds my resurrecting it with the following question: What specific UK laws would I be breaking if I towed a trailer with my ebike which contained a small petrol generator charging a spare battery located in the trailer, not connected to the wiring on the bike, while pedalling along a UK road? The idea is to swap batteries every so often to get from Land's End to John o'Groats.

Oh, and what penalties should I expect for breaking the specific UK laws which prohibit my charging a spare battery in the bike trailer, while in motion on the public highway?

 

[Woosh]

I think we have discussed this scenario some time ago.
The general consensus is if you run your generator on public road, you are carrying out an economic activity that is not authorised on the road - such as 'manufacturing' on the road.
If you stop at a layby and run your generator there then it's OK.
I am still puzzled as there are legal examples of manufacturing on the road such as concrete mixers and refrigerated trucks.
After all, running a generator on the bike is no different to driving a plug in hybrid car or having a solar panel/fuel cell to power your bike.

 

[flecc]

I am still puzzled as there are legal examples of manufacturing on the road such as concrete mixers and refrigerated trucks.

Neither of these is generating for vehicle propulsion purposes though. I suppose doing that could be seen as subverting the law.

However, as the acceptance of hybrid cars show, the related laws are being treated very liberally now, expediency now more important than the letter of the law in numerous instances.

Just look at the way the DfT introduced the 250LPM class to allow throttles on pedelecs while that was still illegal under our EU membership. In fact having looked into it, that remains illegal even though we've left the EU. Obviously the DfT know it but don't care.
.

 

[Edward Elizabeth]

The police can tell very easily - legal bikes are supposed to have a marking on the motor confirming its 250W status. If it doesnt have that its illegal. Very simple.

Technically, if you're really picky, even a 250W bike is illegal if it doesn't have the sticker or plate.

I cant see the problem. the current level is fine for most peoples needs. If you want assistance to 20MPH of more then buy a speed pedelec and get it properly registered and insured, none of which is at all difficult. Or you could just pedal a bit harder like normal cyclists do.

Alternatives to the 15.5mph limit already exist, but some people just want to habe their cake and eat it.

 

[Benjahmin]

I think we have discussed this scenario some time ago.
The general consensus is if you run your generator on public road, you are carrying out an economic activity that is not authorised on the road - such as 'manufacturing' on the road.
If you stop at a layby and run your generator there then it's OK.
I am still puzzled as there are legal examples of manufacturing on the road such as concrete mixers and refrigerated trucks.
After all, running a generator on the bike is no different to driving a plug in hybrid car or having a solar panel/fuel cell to power your bike.

If it is illegal to run a generator because it's 'manufacturing', then doesn't that make all car alternators and bike dynamo's illegal?
I guess the only way to know is to try it, see if you get pulled and what the outcome is. Fancy being a test case?
I'm thinking that if you were to get pulled and challenged, then you turn off the generator, apologise profusely for your misunderstanding of the law and swear never to use it again. Cycle on for 40 miles or so (or until shift change) and carry on as you were.
It's so arcane I can't see the average patrol officer being much concerned tbh, unless you're atracting major publicity and creating a major hooha.