A legal question or two....

[Jeremy]

That's the problem, it could only be legal if you got SVA and registered it as a moped....

As I've posted before, I don't think that you would need to go through SVA as a low-powered moped.

My reasoning is this:

1) The bike needs two, separate, low capacity battery packs

2) The generator system does not directly power the bike, but is set up to only charge a "spare", not in use, battery.

3) The controller is configured to switch batteries over as required, without rider intervention.

4) At all times the bike is only powered by an isolated battery, not one connected to the generator.

I believe that this setup legally falls into the existing electric power assisted cycle definition, provided that the electric power, max speed etc is OK.

Jeremy

 

[Miles]

At the least, the legal position would be clarified, and amendments would follow. The spirit of the law seems pretty obvious to me...

What is certain, is that a Low Powered Moped needs SVA...

 

[UrbanPuma]

Flecc,

If EU legislation is enforced here, what are the implications for those who have already purchased an electric bike - will they be legal?

If the throttle has to be used in conjuction with pedelec mode, does this mean you have to actually be turning the pedals as the powacycle range allows throttle and/or pedelec to be used in conjuction or independently.

How does this affect the powacycle range?

UrbanPuma

 

[Miles]

Flecc,

If EU legislation is enforced here, what are the implications for those who have already purchased an electric bike - will they be legal?

UrbanPuma

It's now illegal to sell rigid bull-bars for SUVs but it's still legal to use the ones already fitted...............

 

[Ian]

I agree with Miles, I think once the bike had a IC engine on board that would be deemed to be the power source, even if indirectly. It does raise interesting questions though, at least to a lawyer, as it is obviously perfectly legal to charge a spare battery from a petrol generator away from the bike, so why not on the bike.

 

[Miles]

I agree with Miles, I think once the bike had a IC engine on board that would be deemed to be the power source, even if indirectly. It does raise interesting questions though, at least to a lawyer, as it is obviously perfectly legal to charge a spare battery from a petrol generator away from the bike, so why not on the bike.

I guess, if they'd intended EAPCs to have IC engines (even for secondary use), they wouldn't have ruled them out as drive motors... So, at best, it would be a temporary loophole.

I still dream of a little Stirling EC generator topping up my batteries, though

 

[Jeremy]

I think this is simply a development that the law-makers didn't anticipate, somewhat like my hybrid car. Because the law can't deal with it sensibly, it gets classed in law as an "Alternative Fuel Vehicle", even though the car gets all of it's motive power from burning petrol, like most other cars. This means that I only pay £15 a year road tax, but is clearly a bit of a bodge.

Similarly, I don't believe that fitting a small petrol generator and making an electric hybrid power assisted bike is in any way against the "spirit of the law". The law on EAPCs is simply based on safety-related, criteria; that the power, mass and speed must be constrained to limit the kinetic energy available in the event of an accident. The vast majority of our vehicle regulations are based on this principle; the heavier and/or faster the vehicle goes, the greater the level of safety regulation that is generally applied.

Fitting a hybrid power unit that stays within the EAPC regulations should be perfectly legal, in my view. It's hard to see how a legal argument to the contrary could be put together.

Jeremy

 

[Ian]

I still dream of a little Stirling EC generator topping up my batteries, though

I think the wording of the regs says battery power only, of course it may be just a load of hot air.

 

[Ian]

Fitting a hybrid power unit that stays within the EAPC regulations should be perfectly legal, in my view. It's hard to see how a legal argument to the contrary could be put together.

Jeremy

I think the problem could be in the way the EU EPAC regulations are worded, I did did see it in writing once, possibly in a to B, and it's quite specific about battery power only. Of course lawyers earn their obscene fees from interpreting laws and regulations and nothing is certain until tested in court, I would not wish to be the test subject though.

 

[Miles]

Similarly, I don't believe that fitting a small petrol generator and making an electric hybrid power assisted bike is in any way against the "spirit of the law".

Fitting a hybrid power unit that stays within the EAPC regulations should be perfectly legal, in my view. It's hard to see how a legal argument to the contrary could be put together.

Jeremy

For heavens sake! This is an assisted bicycle. It can be used on bicycle paths and go through parks etc. The last thing we need is a backlash triggered by the reaction to people fitting noisy petrol generators

 

[Jeremy]

I've just been through the EU regulations and cannot see a mention of battery power anywhere.

The only reference I've found simply states that an EAPC is a cycle with pedal assistance which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0,25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling.

I really can't see any reason why a very small generator cannot be carried to recharge a spare battery.

I doubt that we are too far away from having viable, liquid hydrocarbon-fuelled, fuel cells. As far as I can see there is no reason in law that such a device, fuelled by petrol, perhaps, couldn't also be used to power an EAPC.

Anyway, I doubt that the law would ever get tested, as a small generator, neatly contained within a custom designed, well-silenced, housing, might well be so discrete as to never attract the attention of the law. I strongly suspect that a large number of unlawful electrically assisted bikes are already sold and used here and I haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted yet.

Jeremy

Edited to add:

The last thing we need is a backlash triggered by the reaction to people fitting noisy petrol generators

Who said anything about it being noisy? The link I posted was to a system designed for use in an environment where making a noise could lead to detection and being killed...............

 

[Miles]

I think the wording of the regs says battery power only, of course it may be just a load of hot air.

It's only a dream

 

[Miles]

Who said anything about it being noisy? The link I posted was to a system designed for use in an environment where making a noise could lead to detection and being killed...............

Who said anything about using that system?

No doubt you could make a reasonably quiet system that wouldn't attract attention (just don't have an accident....) but others might not...

 

[Ian]

I really can't see any reason why a very small generator cannot be carried to recharge a spare battery.

I agree totally Jeremy, but I'm not a lawyer, policeman or politician.

I also agree that the chances of being stopped are pretty minimal but there is is always the possibility of an accident which if serious enough would lead to a police investigation etc.

 

[Jeremy]

I guess someone thoroughly irresponsible COULD decide to fit a really nasty, noisy generator, but then such a person might equally well choose to just fit a petrol direct-drive engine anyway.

My interest is primarily in getting clean, quiet pedal-assistance - hence my interest in this idea.

If developed properly, then such a concept does have the potential to become a far more practical pedal-assistance system than the limited range batteries we presently have, with all of their associated problems, such as relatively short life and high cost. The lightly-loaded NiMH batteries in my Prius are guaranteed by Toyota for 8 years or 100,000 miles and all the indications so far are that they will easily outlast the warranty period by a substantial margin. Similarly, you normally cannot tell when driving a Prius at normal speeds whether the petrol engine is on or off without looking at the central energy display, as the engine is very quiet.

Applying this sort of technology in a very scaled down way to a bike power assist system would, if it were done well, potentially open up the use of power assisted bikes to a much bigger consumer base, one where long range, the freedom from being tied to convenient charging points or just the psychological assurance of knowing that the batteries are not going to go flat, would be a major selling point.

Jeremy

 

[Ian]

I can certainly understand your attraction to such a system, the limited range of current EPAC's is certainly a negative point. However adding a hybrid transmition would surely make the machine a hybrid motorcycle rather than an EPAC, in the same way that your Prius is not an electric car, it runs on petrol.

I'm sure such a machine is possible, but to appeal to the mass market it would have to to offer more than current petrol mopeds and scooters, and I'm not at all sure that enough consumers would be prepared to to pay the extra to make it viable.

 

[Miles]

I guess someone thoroughly irresponsible COULD decide to fit a really nasty, noisy generator, but then such a person might equally well choose to just fit a petrol direct-drive engine anyway.

That clearly would be illegal. You're arguing the case for what, according to you, would be a legal system. In that case, it is up to the individuals discretion how much noise they make... that's problematic....

I'm not against the idea, in principle - in fact it's one that comes up quite frequently - I just think it's more suited to a modified Moped class.

 

[Jeremy]

I'm sure cost would be a big factor and it's the reason that currently available fuel cells, although an obvious candidate, are not the best choice (a 600Wh per day methanol-fuelled cell is currently about £1500, but it does only weigh 7.5kg). Such a system would be ideal as a charger for an on-board battery, but to give a reasonable range it would still need a relatively large capacity battery, adding considerably to the cost.

The key to making an acceptable system would be getting a quiet, clean, low cost system that gave a decent usable range. The component prices for a generator-based hybrid system aren't too high compared to present high capacity battery costs.

- The small, 25cc, four stroke Honda GX25 retails in the US for just $175.

- A suitable 300W to 400W motor/generator (converted electric flight motor) would be about another £50.

- A couple of small capacity LiPo battery packs might add another £100.

- The control electronics would be less than £50.

Overall a DIY hybrid power supply unit could perhaps be built for around £350 or so, assuming it was a hobby project. Estimated total weight would be around 10kg, a little heavy, but not outrageously so.

I think I may well look a bit further into building such a system - it would make an interesting winter project and might just stimulate someone to look at making a unit that is commercially viable, if I can get it to work.

Jeremy

Edited to add:

Miles,

Why do you think such a machine should fall into the low powered moped category? I can't see any safety or risk-based rationale for drawing such a conclusion - surely a machine that has the same weight and speed range as an EAPC and is used in precisely the same manner, cannot be intrinsically more hazardous, can it?

UK Government policy is to only regulate when there is a reason to do so. In fact the Government adopted the principle of evidence-based decision making with regard to regulation some time ago now.

Anyway, it looks as if the question as to whether or not it's OK to use fuel to power a legal electric bike has already been answered. A fuel cell bike is already on sale and has been EU approved as being compliant with the EAPC requirements. See here: PEM Hydrogen Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Bicycle from Valeswood ETD Ltd.

 

[Ian]

Why do you think such a machine should fall into the low powered moped category? I can't see any safety or risk-based rationale for drawing such a conclusion - surely a machine that has the same weight and speed range as an EPAC and is used in precisely the same manner, cannot be intrinsically more hazardous, can it?

I'm sure that the full version of 2002/24/EC rather than the brief summaries usually seen does specify on-board batteries, I wish I could remember where I'd seen the specific extract. There is also the forthcoming CEN standard which will define a "safe" pedelec, and the existing construction and use regulations for pedal cycles which apply to EPACs which may or may not make a difference.

 

[DBCohen]

The key to making an acceptable system would be getting a quiet, clean, low cost system that gave a decent usable range. The component prices for a generator-based hybrid system aren't too high compared to present high capacity battery costs.

- The small, 25cc, four stroke Honda GX25 retails in the US for just $175.

- A suitable 300W to 400W motor/generator (converted electric flight motor) would be about another £50.

- A couple of small capacity LiPo battery packs might add another £100.

- The control electronics would be less than £50.

.....

I think I may well look a bit further into building such a system - it would make an interesting winter project and might just stimulate someone to look at making a unit that is commercially viable, if I can get it to work.

Jeremy, I admire your enthusiasm - but in my experience the motor you are suggesting is not very quiet when under load in a strimmer. As such, I think your goals could well be defeated in reality with respect to noise.

As far as the original micro-generator you kicked of the idea with, it is currently a military R&D model. When it has been perfected, declassified and commercially produced, this might be a way to go. For the moment, I am skeptical, but I would be interested as to your progress if you decide to try and take it forward.

David.