350W BMS Battery legality problem

[morphix]

As some have probably noticed from my other threads, I'm currently in the process of doing my second conversion and just received an order from BMS Battery this week..

I was surprised to find the motor (a Q100 which was advertised as 250W-350W) has a sticker on it saying 350W.. I asked for a 250W motor! If I fit this, I'm going to have an illegal bike eh.

The controller they supplied has a sticker on it saying 250W 15A. So, even though the motor is 350W, if the controller limits it to 250W, would it still be legal to use this motor? I.e. would the controller effectively limit the power to 250W?

I'm not that concerned about this as the bike will be ridden to 15.5mph max etc, but I'm just curious why BMS Battery are doing this and the legal implications for customers.

 

[RoadieRoger]

Judging by some of the postings saying that motors put out more power than quoted , just do the simple thing and change the sticker , simple .

 

[flecc]

It's a confusing issue since the law refers to motor rating, but as we know, the controller is part of the motor since the latter can't work without it. Your setup will be legal but that may require technical legal argument in a theoretical prosecution circumstance.

The motor and controller stickers have no meaning in law. The UK's EAPC regulations require that all e-bikes be plated, the plate to be affixed to the bike in a prominent position where it can easily be read, and stating the motor power in watts, the battery voltage and the bike's weight.

Of course none comply at present.

 

[morphix]

Incidentally, my order was opened and inspected by Border Agency! It had a big sign on it saying "Home Office Border Agency inspected". Heh. First time I've ever had anything checked by Customs. So now they know I have an illegal motor and my address *hides*

 

[morphix]

It's a confusing issue since the law refers to motor rating, but as we know, the controller is part of the motor since the latter can't work without it. Your setup will be legal but that may require technical legal argument in a theoretical prosecution circumstance.

The motor and controller stickers have no meaning in law. The UK's EAPC regulations require that all e-bikes be plated, the plate to be affixed to the bike in a prominent position where it can easily be read, and stating the motor power in watts, the battery voltage and the bike's weight.

Of course none comply at present.

Gosh. I didn't know that. So that plate is presumably to be fixed by the manufacturer on e-bikes ready built? But what about self-build, does the plate thing still apply? Presumably the motor/kit supplier would/should have to supply one to certify it's in legal compliance? Where and how would you fit that to your bike though on a self-build? heh. I wouldn't want any nasty drilling of holes or ugly plates on my beautiful Mezzo..f*** dat!

I can see the common sense in this approach (from an enforcement prospective) as it makes the polices job easier if they want to inspect a bike..and also easier for the public to be sure they're buying a road legal (and safe) e-bike. Why isn't the UK industry following this, or perhaps some manufacturers are?

 

[Old_Dave]

illegal motor

The Home Office have no interest what so ever in wheelchairs ;-)

 

[flecc]

Gosh. I didn't know that. So that plate is presumably to be fixed by the manufacturer on e-bikes ready built? But what about self-build, does the plate thing still apply?

Yes it does apply to self builds. Once built and before hitting the road, an e-bike should be presented to the Vehicle Inspectorate to establish that it is a legal e-bike not requiring motor vehicle type approval. To do that the builder will have to provide and affix that plate first.

Once again universally ignored law. We really are a bunch of hardened criminals!

 

[morphix]

Yes it does apply to self builds. Once built and before hitting the road, an e-bike should be presented to the Vehicle Inspectorate to establish that it is a legal e-bike not requiring motor vehicle type approval.

Ah! I totally got the wrong end of the stick.. that's even more bizarre and surprising.

To do that the builder will have to provide and affix that plate first.

Once again universally ignored law. We really are a bunch of hardened criminals!

Haha.

So just to take this legal conjecture further.. if this law is ignored.... what would happen IF you did get in some bother and found yourself in court... would they prosecute you as well for not doing the presenting and plate thing you think?

Or because nobody does that and it's not actively enforced on the industry, they wouldn't bother? Basically what I'm thinking is...without the plate certifying the bike is legal... say you caused some accident and the police argued your bike being an e-bike was the cause.. could they use that "he didn't get it approved" argument? Or maybe it would just be a case of them carting your bike off to the place that does that testing/approval and they say yes/no and that determines if they bring charges or not.

 

[Old_Dave]

affix that plate first.

Wot like this fine example ?



Please note that this is only shown for example purposes only.... not for editing in photoshop or similar and then printing out onto suitable material.

 

[morphix]

Wot like this fine example ?

View attachment 4469

Please note that this is only shown for example purposes only.... not for editing in photoshop or similar and then printing out onto suitable material.

I will sell them labels in different colours for different bikes

 

[morphix]

I think my Mezzo might fly with this kit on and the high gearing I'm putting on! Certainly will be interesting to find out. The motor is 328 RPM. I'm wondering if my 36V 10Ah will be sufficient with the higher RPM? It copes fine on my 26" even with VERY steep hills without pedalling.. they do say smaller wheeled bikes takes hills easier though eh, so maybe it will "even out" and the higher RPM won't cause the battery to run down too much.

 

[RoadieRoger]

If only the Border Agency concentrated on all the Illegals, rather than motors with a few too many watts . With all the illegal bikes on here without plates , the powers that be could nab us as a Group and we would be putty in their hands . There wouldn`t be enough jails in the London area, as that seems to be where most Ebikes are concentrated . Eddieo could choose Southend to be near Woosh and receive foodparcels from Hattie .

 

[flecc]

So just to take this legal conjecture further.. if this law is ignored.... what would happen IF you did get in some bother and found yourself in court... would they prosecute you as well for not doing the presenting and plate thing you think?

Or because nobody does that and it's not actively enforced on the industry, they wouldn't bother? Basically what I'm thinking is...without the plate certifying the bike is legal... say you caused some accident and the police argued your bike being an e-bike was the cause.. could they use that "he didn't get it approved" argument?

Normally they wouldn't bother, it's too complicated for the police to understand and the Crown Prosecution Service would be unlikely to want to get embroiled.

A traffic officer in one force who attempted an excess power based prosecution was successfully blocked from that by use of some advice I gave, but he then turned to the more complicated Construction and Use regulations. Once again it was possible for me to obstruct that so he enlisted his force to approach the DfT. Suffice it to say that that even then no prosecution resulted, clearly the official view finally being that the matter wasn't worth pursuing in such depth.

That doesn't mean immunity from simple law breaking, but it does mean that prosecutions based on complex legal technicalities are unlikely to succeed.

 

[Old_Dave]

I'm wondering if my 36V 10Ah will be sufficient

Whatever you do... don't listen to d8veh when he mentions lipos

Unless of course you have a spare credit card, then the grin is priceless

 

[morphix]

If only the Border Agency concentrated on all the Illegals, rather than motors with a few too many watts . With all the illegal bikes on here without plates , the powers that be could nab us as a Group and we would be putty in their hands . There wouldn`t be enough jails in the London area, as that seems to be where most Ebikes are concentrated . Eddieo could choose Southend to be near Woosh and receive foodparcels from Hattie .

Haha now there's a thought!

It's strange but, I don't know whether it's the same in other areas, but here in the Midlands the police seem to have ZERO interest in e-bikes. I live right opposite one of those little "community-policing" offices and they're always coming and going... they've seen me riding past them umpteen times and even on pavements riding on throttle, and don't say anything...except hello! The "busy" bobbies seem to be a thing of the past..the ones that stopped anything or anyone for "checking out". These community police are just doing meetings and paperwork it seems, tweeting and what not. heh. They do have some rather hot community police girls with pony tails who ride bikes (not e-bikes though) on pavements around here..but then the law doesn't apply to the police does it? ;-)

 

[flecc]

.but then the law doesn't apply to the police does it? ;-)

It seems not. In 2009 and riding in a car with a police officer driving, not a patrol car and not a police driver, I was giving him directions since the area was unfamiliar to him. When he was approaching a bend at 40 in a 30 limit area, I warned him that there was an active Gatso speed camera just around the bend. His response was, "Oh we don't have to bother with those".

That immunity didn't seem to extend to murdering one's wife in a case a short while ago, not sure why.

 

[BAH48]

Not really cricket is it, murdering one's wife. As my old Granny used to say "cheat fair"

 

[Deleted member 4366]

As some have probably noticed from my other threads, I'm currently in the process of doing my second conversion and just received an order from BMS Battery this week..

I was surprised to find the motor (a Q100 which was advertised as 250W-350W) has a sticker on it saying 350W.. I asked for a 250W motor! If I fit this, I'm going to have an illegal bike eh.

The controller they supplied has a sticker on it saying 250W 15A. So, even though the motor is 350W, if the controller limits it to 250W, would it still be legal to use this motor? I.e. would the controller effectively limit the power to 250W?

I'm not that concerned about this as the bike will be ridden to 15.5mph max etc, but I'm just curious why BMS Battery are doing this and the legal implications for customers.

It would probably be best to make a sticker for the motor to avoid any confusion. The Q100 has about the same power as a Bafang 250w. Nothing like the 350w Bafang BPM, which has huge torque by comparison.

201 rpm is 15mph at 36v in a 26" wheel, so your bike will do 15 x 20/26 x 40/36 x 328/201 mph = 20.92 mph (no load) or about 18mph with you riding. Hill-climbing should be slightly better than your previous bike depending on the actual current from the controller.

Some of the KU63s only give 13 amps, so it's worth measuring with your Speedict, and then solder about 1/3 of the shunt to get the current up to about 17.5m which will make it feel a bit stronger.

12S lipos at 48v will bring the motor to life so that you can sustain about 23mph - great fun for racing the roadies, especially when you have a big bag of shopping on board to add to the effect.

To make a label. get some of that aluminium 2" wide tape from Aldi. Design a label on your PC and print it on normal paper. Stick a piece of the aluminium tape directly over the image by using mormal strips of selotape just overlapping the aluminium tape (don't peel the backing off yet). Put it back through the printer to get the image on the foil, then place some 2" wide selotape over the image to weatherproof it. Finally cut to size, peel the backing off and stick it on the motor. Mine's been on for two years now and looks like it was original.

Note: Not all printers can print on aluminium, but photocopiers and laser printers can.

 

[eddieo]

If only the Border Agency concentrated on all the Illegals, rather than motors with a few too many watts . With all the illegal bikes on here without plates , the powers that be could nab us as a Group and we would be putty in their hands . There wouldn`t be enough jails in the London area, as that seems to be where most Ebikes are concentrated . Eddieo could choose Southend to be near Woosh and receive foodparcels from Hattie .

please dont give her any more ideas Rog!

mind you if she is that sexy young thing on a bike I saw in recent woosh add..maybe I'm being a bit rash...I have a stalker as it is over on a motorhome forum......Its tough being a legend in your own lunchtime

 

[103Alex1]

Eddieo could choose Southend to be near Woosh and receive foodparcels from Hattie .

A personal visit might do more to 'lift his spirits'