350W BMS Battery legality problem

[neptune]

@Flecc. In an earlier post in this thread, you refer to the Construction and Use Regs. I believe these are the Motor Vehicle Construction and use regulations, so the implication is that the copper was trying to say the the ebike was in fact a motor vehicle by being overpowered?
I would assume that these regs only apply to motor vehicles, so there may be equivalent regs covering bicycles. One thing I was thinking about is pedal tricycles, as regards maximum width. Does anyone know what this is please?

 

[flecc]

Yes, the police officer was aiming to say that and he was of course right in principle.

There are width regulations for tricycles in both Britain and Europe. I can't remember them offhand but they are not very restrictive, think of the pedicabs for example which can seat three average people abreast.

However trikes are often designed to be able to pass through a standard 32" doorway.

 

[Old_Dave]

I recon this is what Neptune has in mind ....




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[neptune]

Actually we were discussing building a sail assisted trike, and a wide track would make it more stable. Bit of a pig in traffic, though.

 

[flecc]

Actually we were discussing building a sail assisted trike, and a wide track would make it more stable. Bit of a pig in traffic, though.

Especially when tacking against the wind!

 

[mrpscott]

Just picked up on this thread. The whole legal / illegal issue is not a problem until it is! Say you are on your illegal ebike and involved in an accident which proves to have been your fault, victim is maimed for life and awarded substantial damages - which could run to millions. Your bike is illegal so the insurance is invalid so you lose you home and any other assets and become bankrupt. This is the reality, although an extreme example, of life - why muck around???
Me - I am happy to trundle around at an average 12mph on a legal bike and enjoy the scenery!

 

[morphix]

I recon this is what Neptune has in mind ....

View attachment 4470


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Hehe imagine what riding that!..the film Easier Rider springs to mine! It would be fun to build an electric bike that resembles one of those choppers =)

 

[Cyclezee]

Incidentally, my order was opened and inspected by Border Agency! It had a big sign on it saying "Home Office Border Agency inspected". Heh. First time I've ever had anything checked by Customs. So now they know I have an illegal motor and my address *hides*

Hi Morphix,

The reason your package was inspected would have been for the following reason as stated on their website,

"The UK Border Agency is responsible for ensuring that they are free from illegal items such as drugs and firearms, and that the correct tax and/or duty is paid on them."

They are unlikely to have checked the legality of the motor, they were probably more interested in the value of the goods.

Don't be surprised if you get a bill from the parcel delivery company for VAT and import duty, as they collect it on behalf of HMRC.

Our airfreight imports normally come by TNT and we get a bill from them a couple of weeks after delivery.

We had a shipment of bespoke kits earlier this year destined for a trade customer who wanted them in a hurry, so they came by FedEx airfreight and went straight to the customer.

I got the invoice from FedEx for 6% import duty and 20% VAT as expected, however the shipper had incorrectly described the goods and the wrong commodity code was applied, HMRC subsequently added Anti Dumping Duty of 48.5%

It has taken months to sort this one out.

On another container shipment, which was X-rayed by HMRC, the freight handling company stuck the decimal point one number to the right, on the invoice and we got a bill for 10 times the amount it should have been, when I pointed this error out to company they thought it was highly amusing

It just shows that you have to be very careful with documentation and check everything twice.

 

[morphix]

Just picked up on this thread. The whole legal / illegal issue is not a problem until it is! Say you are on your illegal ebike and involved in an accident which proves to have been your fault, victim is maimed for life and awarded substantial damages - which could run to millions. Your bike is illegal so the insurance is invalid so you lose you home and any other assets and become bankrupt. This is the reality, although an extreme example, of life - why muck around???
Me - I am happy to trundle around at an average 12mph on a legal bike and enjoy the scenery!

Ya hopefully as flecc said the controller will limit that motor down to 250W...and if it's too "lively" I can always use my speedict to cap it anyway and keep things safe.. I certainly wouldn't intentionally break the law or put others in danger.. I'm just a bit disappointed BMS sold me 350W when I asked for 250W.. I think others should watch out for this..but maybe the 250W controller will sort it.. I will report back in due course anyway once Catsnapper has done my wheel.

 

[morphix]

Hi Morphix,

The reason your package was inspected would have been for the following reason as stated on their website,

"The UK Border Agency is responsible for ensuring that they are free from illegal items such as drugs and firearms, and that the correct tax and/or duty is paid on them."

They are unlikely to have checked the legality of the motor, they were probably more interested in the value of the goods.

Don't be surprised if you get a bill from the parcel delivery company for VAT and import duty, as they collect it on behalf of HMRC.

Our airfreight imports normally come by TNT and we get a bill from them a couple of weeks after delivery.

We had a shipment of bespoke kits earlier this year destined for a trade customer who wanted them in a hurry, so they came by FedEx airfreight and went straight to the customer.

I got the invoice from FedEx for 6% import duty and 20% VAT as expected, however the shipper had incorrectly described the goods and the wrong commodity code was applied, HMRC subsequently added Anti Dumping Duty of 48.5%

It has taken months to sort this one out.

On another container shipment, which was X-rayed by HMRC, the freight handling company stuck the decimal point one number to the right, on the invoice and we got a bill for 10 times the amount it should have been, when I pointed this error out to company they thought it was highly amusing

It just shows that you have to be very careful with documentation and check everything twice.

Oh I'm well familiar with the routine I import regular for my business, but it's very rare for anything to be inspected, for me anyway. Normally they trust couriers to do it and put the items on the system for VAT+Duty collection.

Heh I know what you mean about the mistakes.. I used to use TNT for all my airfreight (they're a f'kin nightmare of a company to deal with, I swear they just make up numbers and quotes). They've consistently overcharged me on freight, VAT and duty on numerous occasions and subsequently had to credit me back. I also stopped their £15 a time "deferral fee" racket by informing them I wanted to pay HMRC directly (which is every consumers and businesses right). I don't deal with TNT anymore or use airfreight.. I just sea freight its much cheaper and easier for me to consolidate all my shipments to one location by road freight and buy container space on ships.

 

[amigafan2003]

They are unlikely to have checked the legality of the motor, they were probably more interested in the value of the goods.

The thing is though, posession of a 350w motor, or a 500w motor or even a 5000w motor isn't illegal.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Ya hopefully as flecc said the controller will limit that motor down to 250W...and if it's too "lively" I can always use my speedict to cap it anyway and keep things safe.. I certainly wouldn't intentionally break the law or put others in danger.. I'm just a bit disappointed BMS sold me 350W when I asked for 250W.. I think others should watch out for this..but maybe the 250W controller will sort it.. I will report back in due course anyway once Catsnapper has done my wheel.

There's only one power version of the Q100. They either say "250w - 350w" or "350w" on the label, so they didn't send you the wrong one. As has been said many times before, the label on the motor has no sensible meaning.

 

[morphix]

There's only one power version of the Q100. They either say "250w - 350w" or "350w" on the label, so they didn't send you the wrong one. As has been said many times before, the label on the motor has no sensible meaning.

Which is the power rating then eh? It can't be both 250W and 350W..why are they quoting a range on their website? I've seen sellers offering 250W OR 350W but never one motor that does both.

 

[morphix]

The thing is though, posession of a 350w motor, or a 500w motor or even a 5000w motor isn't illegal.

Exactly. This is my concern. People are placing an order in good faith expecting to get kit which is UK road legal, and it appears that's not what is being sent. Of course, you can remove the sticker etc, and use a 250W controller.. but if you did get pulled by the cops for any reason and they discovered it's a 350W motor you could be screwed?

 

[Old_Dave]

It's all to do with continuous output of the complete bike, if the output is limited by the controller then it's no matter what the motor 'could' be capable of under a different configuration.

I think, lol


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[103Alex1]

It's all to do with continuous output of the complete bike, if the output is limited by the controller then it's no matter what the motor 'could' be capable of under a different configuration.

I think, lol


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That makes total sense to me. It's basically having an assistance restrictor in place and provided that this configuration is in place at the relevant time the bike is in use on the road, can't see how the bike could be successfully argued to be illegal on challenge if continuous output is 250W or less.

 

[morphix]

That makes total sense to me. It's basically having an assistance restrictor in place and provided that this configuration is in place at the relevant time the bike is in use on the road, can't see how the bike could be successfully argued to be illegal on challenge if continuous output is 250W or less.

Yeah I guess so, unless the controller in question is higher power than the BMS Battery let on.. this is the thing really, because the industry is unregulated and you're dealing with companies in China... how can consumers really be responsible eh. Unless we do what the law asks and present our bikes for testing to that DfT place. We only have the word of the manufacturers in China our kit is legal unless you have the technology and means to test it yourself at home.

Do UK-based e-bike manufacturers like Whisper get their bikes approved/checked in UK? Is there some argument then here, that going down the self-build route is more risky and/or places a burden of responsibility to establish legality and road safety on us?

 

[Old_Dave]

In God and the devine rating plate we trust


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[flecc]

Do UK-based e-bike manufacturers like Whisper get their bikes approved/checked in UK? Is there some argument then here, that going down the self-build route is more risky and/or places a burden of responsibility to establish legality and road safety on us?

They use EU approved labs to test the bikes for EN15194 compliance. Self build is inherently legally more risky, but unlikely to cause problems if the self build complies with the law.

 

[morphix]

They use EU approved labs to test the bikes for EN15194 compliance. Self build is inherently legally more risky, but unlikely to cause problems if the self build complies with the law.

My Mezzo has an ENxxxx sticker on it Presume that means it's passed all the UK safety standards and quality assurance levels. Having a proper branded serial numbered bike makes it a lot easier on my insurance, but I'm not sure where I stand with regards to the electric side of it and if that is covered..I need to give L&G a ring and find out next week..I expect they will say only bike is covered..nothing aftersale addon.