20mph speed limit -applies to bikes ?

GaRRy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 18, 2012
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Tamworth
My bike is one of those which is borderline I think.. the controller makes the bike road legal and restricts motor to 250W and the speed to 15.5mph etc, but the motor has a 350W label on it and as the law stands, a bike can't be on the road with a 350W rated motor fitted to it? This is a topic we have done over many times on the forum and still seems to be a grey area.. if I were to get pulled, would the police say, ok his controller makes his bike compliant, or oh he's got a 350W motor so that bike is not compliant.
Good question especially as BH state categorically that NEO's have 350 watt motors restricted to 250 watt to comply with the law and the are Eu Law compliant.

As with all of this until someone is prosecuted its all just guess work.
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
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We've had 20mph zones round hear for ages - I've never had a problem. Then again, the police don't seem fussed about enforcing the limit - cars still see to be going everywhere at 30mph+.

Anyhow - without a speedo how do I know I'm exceeding the speed limit?
I doubt the police can or will be bothered to practically enforce these 20mph limits..they already come out and said as much...the police federation etc.. that they don't have the manpower or resources to police those limits and don't intend to do it.

So that means the local authorities will have to either rely on people complying, else invest in expensive speed camera technology and issue penalties that way.
 

morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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Good question especially as BH state categorically that NEO's have 350 watt motors restricted to 250 watt to comply with the law and the are Eu Law compliant.

As with all of this until someone is prosecuted its all just guess work.
I think in my case, if the police did stop me they would probably be able to just use their common sense and lift the back wheel off the road and open the throttle and see just by looking it's not going to do 20mph.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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Does anyone know if speed cameras respond to bicycles? I am sure I read somewhere that a cyclist managed to do 45 mph through a 30 mph camera and fired the camera,bit difficult to prosecute without a number plate!
Dave
Kudoscycles
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,221
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I doubt many can do Dave. I've tried on some down slopes, including at 44 mph, but always failed. I did once manage to trigger one of the advisory speed signs when nothing else was near, but it showed a quite different speed from mine so it may have been faulty in some way. I wasn't even breaking the limit since I was at an accurate 28 mph when it showed 34 mph.
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
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Does anyone know if speed cameras respond to bicycles? I am sure I read somewhere that a cyclist managed to do 45 mph through a 30 mph camera and fired the camera,bit difficult to prosecute without a number plate!
Dave
Kudoscycles
Heh that's true. I saw a news report the other day that police camera and CCTV technology is being beaten by criminals using those pocket keyring laser pointer things.. the police are saying it's a growing problem in many areas and if someone points one of those pocket laser pointers at the camera it just totally blocks out the image (not that you'd be able to do that while riding or driving 30mph through a 20mph limit!). They even had some problems with planes and police helicopters, same thing, criminals/gangs pointed the lasers at the them and they nearly crashed.
 

SRS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 30, 2012
847
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South Coast
Very good revenue raiser is the 20mph limit, under the guise of 'Road Safety'. Spend more time looking at your speedometer than the road ahead....
I have a few of Lizzies parks in my local, the 20mph limit is rigorously enforced, cyclists get caught out on a daily basis.
I agree, motorists will spend more time checking the speedo.
I'd rather everyone looked at the road ahead. There will be more rear enders especially in fixed camera spots.

Lets see a proper scientific study of driver eye movements / focus when driving in and out of these camera ridden areas.

Personally I would prefer do dump the speedo, eyes on the road 100% of the time and just drive to the road and surrounding conditions.
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
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Worcestershire
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I agree, motorists will spend more time checking the speedo.
I'd rather everyone looked at the road ahead. There will be more rear enders especially in fixed camera spots.

Lets see a proper scientific study of driver eye movements / focus when driving in and out of these camera ridden areas.

Personally I would prefer do dump the speedo, eyes on the road 100% of the time and just drive to the road and surrounding conditions.
I'm not a car driver so don't know how it works, but surely, if they want 20mph limits can't they just put speed bumps on the road and/or just paint some pedestrian crossings in those areas, and that would discourage drivers putting their foot down?
 

GaRRy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 18, 2012
1,019
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Tamworth
I agree, motorists will spend more time checking the speedo.
I'd rather everyone looked at the road ahead. There will be more rear enders especially in fixed camera spots.

Lets see a proper scientific study of driver eye movements / focus when driving in and out of these camera ridden areas.

Personally I would prefer do dump the speedo, eyes on the road 100% of the time and just drive to the road and surrounding conditions.
Yea buts that what we had years ago before speed limits and the problem was that one person idea of a safe speed is different from anothers so how in court do you fairly and consitently decide whos in the wrong ?. Speed limits were only introduced to make it easier to proscute people for driving to fast by setting a hard defined limit.

Speed limits are in general wrong, as which is more dangerous 100mph on a sunny day down a empty motorway or 70 mph on same motorway in rush hour and fog ?. Yet first is illegal and second is not (from a speeding point of view police could still try and do you for dangerous driving which again then comes down to opinion)

Truble is your solution relies on all drivers using common sense and driving sensibly which we all know is never going to happen.
 

GaRRy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 18, 2012
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Tamworth
I'm not a car driver so don't know how it works, but surely, if they want 20mph limits can't they just put speed bumps on the road and/or just paint some pedestrian crossings in those areas, and that would discourage drivers putting their foot down?
Trouble with speed bumps is that just cause the brake, speed up, brake, speed up syndrome which is no more safe and as for pedestrain crossings to many of them just leeds to drivers trying to get across as many as possible without stopping.
 

SRS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 30, 2012
847
347
South Coast
Yea buts that what we had years ago before speed limits and the problem was that one person idea of a safe speed is different from anothers so how in court do you fairly and consitently decide whos in the wrong ?. Speed limits were only introduced to make it easier to proscute people for driving to fast by setting a hard defined limit.

Speed limits are in general wrong, as which is more dangerous 100mph on a sunny day down a empty motorway or 70 mph on same motorway in rush hour and fog ?. Yet first is illegal and second is not (from a speeding point of view police could still try and do you for dangerous driving which again then comes down to opinion)

Truble is your solution relies on all drivers using common sense and driving sensibly which we all know is never going to happen.
Yep, absolutley right. It is never going to happen. Does not mean that I or anyone else has to be happy with the situation, just accept best possible.

The technogy exists for engine management systems to be linked with gps position and mapped against current speed limits. Car can automatically restrict to the local speed limit.

Sure, a few people killed when the car slows at the crucial moment but nothing like the carnage we currently have.

The powers that be would have us all believe that a high proportion of accidents are speed related. Well put their money where their mouths are and implement the above.

We'll soon see if they are right. Oh, of course they will have to raise taxes to compensate for the lost speeding revenue but I am sure thats ok with most people.
 

banbury frank

Banned
Jan 13, 2011
1,565
5
Hi Call me a old fart I get flashed when around town i don't go over 28 MPH The speed limit is 30 MPH MAXIM NOT 30+ The weird part off speed limits are that they are in 10MPH if the law was changed to speed limit in 5 MPH increments this can be done as modern speedos are much more accurate so then town centers can be changed to 25 MPH At 25 MPH a collision with a person is not fatal at 35 + MPH it IS or very serious injures accrue

Frank
 

SRS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 30, 2012
847
347
South Coast
Hi Call me a old fart I get flashed when around town i don't go over 28 MPH The speed limit is 30 MPH MAXIM NOT 30+ The weird part off speed limits are that they are in 10MPH if the law was changed to speed limit in 5 MPH increments this can be done as modern speedos are much more accurate so then town centers can be changed to 25 MPH At 25 MPH a collision with a person is not fatal at 35 + MPH it IS or very serious injures accrue

Frank
Frank, lower limits in town are needed and have been for many years.

Speaking for myself who, over the years has had a few speeding fines and points, I spend far too much time looking at the speedo. I think, paranoid is the word.

One of the reasons I rarely use my motorcycle in this country. I prefer to look at the road at all times and not the dashboard.

In the car, I have the cruise control set to the local max limit. Drive normally and the cruise stops the car going over this limit. Thus, I can safely look at the roads.

Why can't all vehicles have this?
 

RobF

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 22, 2012
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'Wanton and furious riding' is an old offence - the riding originally referred to a horse.

However, it is still used occasionally because most of the motoring offences contain the phrase 'you drove a mechanically propelled vehicle....' and not all vehicles fit the definition 'mechanically propelled'.

It is generally held that speed limits do not apply to bicycles, but were you to ride a bike at speed in a dangerous manner, say outside a school at kicking out time, you could be charged with wanton and furious.

Where this leaves ebikes is not clear, but I reckon most would be treated as ordinary bikes.

An exception might be that £9,000 contraption that does 50mph.

As regards the 20mph limit in Brighton, the best advice must be to stick to it, not least because it's there for a reason.
 

mountainsport

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 6, 2012
1,419
298
Yes legally speaking, but I mean from a practical point of view... the police are still not fully clued on e-bikes in many areas it seems and some will stop you as a matter of routine...if they're out with speed guns and someone whizzes past on an electric bike (clearly under power) and going faster than the 20mph speed limit... you know what the plod are like... if they're bored they might just come after you, pull you over and decide whether you have a legally compliant e-bike or an unregistered electric vehicle. That's what happened to the other chap on the forum wasn't it basically and they took his bike off him. I know some people on this forum are borderline legal and some are definitely not legal, so common sense would seem to apply around these 20mph limits, especially if the old bill are on the scene.. if you have a 100% legal e-bike then probably have nothing to worry about eh.
Hi Morphix,

I'm still confused here,please help me out,OK by registering your bike does this mean that it is now legal to ride regardless of the power/wattage/speed etc? Would the police be less hash on you if caught speeding with or without the assistance of the motor?

Also do you need to be insured and registered at the same time? It is very useful to gain as much valuable information as possible,so that we are more fully equiped and not feel powerless.

Mountainsport
 

GaRRy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 18, 2012
1,019
3
Tamworth
Hi Morphix,

I'm still confused here,please help me out,OK by registering your bike does this mean that it is now legal to ride regardless of the power/wattage/speed etc? Would the police be less hash on you if caught speeding with or without the assistance of the motor?

Also do you need to be insured and registered at the same time? It is very useful to gain as much valuable information as possible,so that we are more fully equiped and not feel powerless.

Mountainsport
If you got your bike registered it would then be classified as a moped/motor bike (depending on power output as there is a limit for mopeds). Once registerd then all laws that apply to that class of vehicle would apply and it would no longer be considered as a bicycle.

So say it was registerd and classed as a moped. you would need relevant license,road tax, MOT, helmet etc just like any other moped. It would also mean you could not use cycle routes etc as it is no longer considered to be bicycle. Oh and breaking the speed limit would also involve penalty points and fines. whether you were using the pedals or just the motor would be completely irrelevant as it would be registerd as a motorised vehicle.
 

amigafan2003

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 12, 2011
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The technogy exists for engine management systems to be linked with gps position and mapped against current speed limits. Car can automatically restrict to the local speed limit.
What about cars that don't use engine management systems?
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
Hi Morphix,

I'm still confused here,please help me out,OK by registering your bike does this mean that it is now legal to ride regardless of the power/wattage/speed etc? Would the police be less hash on you if caught speeding with or without the assistance of the motor?

Also do you need to be insured and registered at the same time? It is very useful to gain as much valuable information as possible,so that we are more fully equiped and not feel powerless.

Mountainsport
Well getting your bike certified as legally compliant is possible, but it's a complicated procedure and expensive..you have to take it to a test centre (there's very few can do it) and pay a fee and they will make sure it complies with the law and issue you a certificate.. but as flecc has pointed out, there's confusion over which standards you would apply for testing. I think the consensus is that it's the old/current UK standards which would be used for testing.

The law says you need a compliance plate fitted to the frame of the bike showing its been tested and meets legal compliance.. I'm not sure where you would get that plate or whether it's even necessary, all seems a bit vague (hence why nobody bothers to actually register their bikes, even manufacturers are selling bikes without the plate fitted and any compliance testing)..perhaps just having a paper certificate of compliance would be sufficient though if stopped by police.

Your bike would have to be fully in compliance of course with the UK (or new EU regulations) to pass the test, i.e. 250W max rated motor, 15.5mph max speed and motor that cuts out if you pedal/move faster than that. I'm not sure about the throttle situation.. EU law states bikes aren't permitted to use the motor unless pedalling so that makes throttles used without pedalling illegal (except at 3mph? for walking/pushing). The EU law is not fully ratified with existing UK law yet though (as far as I know) and we're tolerant of using throttle-only mode on bikes (up to the legal 15.5mph limit of course).

If your bike is already in legal compliance my advice would not to worry about the police or registering it, like the majority of us. The law seems to be tolerant and turning a blind eye to the fact all these e-bikes are on the roads without compliance plates or testing because of the confusion that still exists about the law and bringing UK law inline with the new EU directive on e-bikes.

If your bike does not meet the EU regulations then it's classed as an electric motor vehicle and has to be registered as such with number plates, and you'd need a driving licence/CBT testing, and insurance etc.

The problem with the police and law is only really if you're involved in an accident, especially if you're the cause of the accident and it causes someone injury or damages. In that case, the police would be likely to examine your bike very closely and if they found it was not in legal compliance, they'd do you for all the offences of riding an unlicensed, unregistered, insured, untaxed motor vehicle etc, and you could face personal liability claims against you. If you keep things legal and ride sensibly, I think the risk of that happening is minimal because you'd be classed as a bicycle in law (a road-legal e-bike is a bicycle in law).

There's no requirement to have third party liability insurance on legally complaint e-bikes, and I think getting liability insurance is not easy. Unless your bike is legal and certified I doubt any insurers would insure it. I looked at a few insurers offering travel insurance with third party liability, and they usually have clauses excluding bicycles.
 
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mountainsport

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 6, 2012
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298
If you got your bike registered it would then be classified as a moped/motor bike (depending on power output as there is a limit for mopeds). Once registerd then all laws that apply to that class of vehicle would apply and it would no longer be considered as a bicycle.

So say it was registerd and classed as a moped. you would need relevant license,road tax, MOT, helmet etc just like any other moped. It would also mean you could not use cycle routes etc as it is no longer considered to be bicycle. Oh and breaking the speed limit would also involve penalty points and fines. whether you were using the pedals or just the motor would be completely irrelevant as it would be registerd as a motorised vehicle.
Hi Garry,

Thanks for that,is it worth going through the whole process in regards to registering,taxing and insuring your bike making it road legal? Why dont we all do this, is it because of spending more money or just down to not wanting to be sucked in to this political palaver?

Mountainsport