Your views on possible Woosh crank drive kit

[Old_Dave]

The $1000000 question is how does it respond to a bit of over volting

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Over-volting will only make the crank spin faster, so no point really. I can't quite work out whether there's an actual power advantage at a higher voltage. I think that with a crank-drive, only torque is important, which comes from amps. Already the gearing's a bit low. I hope to test tomorrow with a 11T top gear, which I think will make the pedalling match the motor better at 36v,

After another think, from higher voltage there must be a power advantage in the lower gears as long as you don't want to pedal, but don't think it'll be realised in top gear. I'll put that on the list for tomorrow.

 

[jackhandy]

D8veh, the gng gen2 kit you compare this to - Is that the 400 watt brushless motor?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

This one at 36v:
36V350W/48V400W geared mid drive brushless kit
I'll try and bring mine to Redbridge so that you can try it, if you go.
The one with the belt drive is even more powerful, but a bit less practical.

 

[jackhandy]

Unfortunately, Redbridge is too far for this year.

Shame, because I'd love to go - maybe next year... I'll be retired by then

 

[Marctwo]

I wouldn't be interested in the kit but the crank unit looks nice. I'd like to see it taken apart a bit.

How many teeth on the chainwheel? Can it be changed?

 

[trex]

The kit seems to be easier to fit than rear hub kits. I reckon it would take me under an hour to fit.
I'd pick up a cheap second hand Trek on Gumtree for £100 buy a cd kit and presto, a 24mph e-bike.
Cheaper to run than a Boris bike.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The kit seems to be easier to fit than rear hub kits. I reckon it would take me under an hour to fit.
I'd pick up a cheap second hand Trek on Gumtree for £100 buy a cd kit and presto, a 24mph e-bike.
Cheaper to run than a Boris bike.

I think that it'll be very easy to fit: take of your BB; slide in the motor and fit the LHS BB retainer; fabricate a simple bracket to stop the unit rotating; fit the pedal sensor, panel, brake sensors harness and throttle like any kit; fit the battery; tie down the wires.

I'd like to see a small thumb-throttle and hidden wire brake sensors, which give more options on the handlebars. Fitting a full-width throttle usually means having to get a new gear-changer, which is even worse if you've got integrated brakes/changers.

Just in case you got the wrong idea, even by over-powering the kit, you won't be cruising round at 24 mph like a motorbike unless you're fairly light, but you'll still get assistance to your pedalling at 24mph, which would make it easier to maintain a higher speed.

I also think that the power and speed of the standard kit will be adequate for most people. Only heavy-weights and speed-freaks would be thinking about a few more amps.

 

[trex]

agreed, d8veh. I think the supplied handlebars are a source of parts that you can take what you want to suit your bike. Your idea of thumb throttle is very good, woosh should take this on board because it's natuaral to drop out of gas to change gear or brake. No need for inline brake sensors for hydraulic brakes.
Also, 700C wheels and 11T should get the best out of the kit, you may get (28*14)/(26*11) = 37% speed and range increase over your test bike in pedelec.

 

[muckymits]

Dave would a KU93 be a better bet?

I am just about to put an order in to BMS for other stuff, so might as well get one.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I think I've got a spare new one if you need it in the future. I've got a feeling that 22 amps might be a bit much. The motor is not that big. With one leg of the shunt soldered, the motor just about got warm under heavy use, but with it like in the photo (just past half-way), there was a noticeable difference in temperature, and it's very cold at the moment. I'll dry and get a measurement today for what I've got before I put it all back to standard. I hope Hatti's not reading this! In case your are reading, Hatti, I'll pay for any damage, but I don't think any harm will be done.

Another point: The KU65/63 will just fit in the compartment if you get rid of the unwanted wires. A KU93 would have to be mounted externally, although you'd probably have a different battery anyway.

This brings me to another point. I can't find the link to the actual kit now, but I thought I saw a bottle battery with integrated controller. If it's so, you can't adjust anything current-because the controllers are sealed.

 

[muckymits]

The kits a no no for me as I am upgrading not converting (just hope Hatti stands by her original offer). I hadint thought about physical size of controller as mine fits in a box on the seat tube.

Right off to order a 65 and my other bits

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Another thing I didn't notice before, which means that you can't transfer the motor from the Sirocco to another bike because it has a different diameter BB - 37mm instead of 35mm. What a shame!

 

[Old_Dave]

37mm instead of 35mm. What a shame

I believe that Hatti is having the kit ones made to smaller size, providing there is enough interest for the production run to be economically viable.

The good news is that for the peeps with lathes its only 1mm difference * (lathe users will understand that, lol)

EDIT:- infact the conversion may be cheaper than a new production run (disasemble / 1mm off / re tap the thread / supply suitable 'nut') .. but of course thats putting it far simpler that it is in reality due to the existing bike frame requirements, but then that would be for the fitter to sort out.

* providing ofcourse that theres enough meat on it

 

[trex]

I believe that Hatti is having the kit ones made to smaller size, providing there is enough interest for the production run to be economically viable.

The good news is that for the peeps with lathes its only 1mm difference (lathe users will understand that, lol)

EDIT:- infact the conversion may be cheaper than a new production run (disasemble / 1mm off / re tap the thread / supply suitable 'nut') .. but of course thats putting it far simpler that it is in reality due to the existing bike frame requirements, but then that would be for the fitter to sort out.

I think it's a dead cert that Hatti will order the kits judging the level of interest on ES and here. She should also take d8veh advice and get rid of the BB notches at the same time. By the way, demands for bottle batteries is high, I reckon it'll fetch £200 at least on ebay so you can probably halve the cost of the kit if you only want the motor.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I did some more tests today. I measured the current at 24 amps max at stall point. Up steep hills and in top gear it's pulling 20 to 22 amps. After a couple of laps of the block and some hill-climbs, the motor was quite warm. I think 20 amps at stall-point will be the safe limit in the summer.

I changed the back wheel for an 8 spd Shimano cassette one 32T/11T, which meant that I could pedsl comfortably to 22mph in 7th and 25mph in top; however, even at 20 amps the motor didn't really have enogh torque to pull a gear thst high, so for down-hills only or strong pedallers.

Our 14% test hill is now clear enough from snow that I was able to try it. The bike went up in the now lower first gear without pedalling at about 6mph, which is a big improvement from before, but I think the motor will get too hot up a long hill like that unless you pedal a bit to get the speed a bit higher.

Next test is to put it back to standard apart from the gears, and try it on a longer ride.

My thoughts at the moment are that for tinkerers who want to get a bit more power from the bike, try 18 amps first by soldering the shunt in the standard controller. The 32T bottom gear will be an improvement for everyone with probably 12T being the optimum top gear.

I think most people will be happy with the standard kit as long as they have a low first gear (32T or 34T). If you want more power, you'll have to dump the battery and controller and get more powerful ones.

 

[DCUK6]

Thanks D8veh for your work. Have been waiting for these results.

Looks to me like its a good bit of kit. Im hopefully going to Redbridge on the 7th to try hub vs crank but so far from what i've read crank seems to have made the hub motors obsolete.

From Hattis reply (email) it would seem that the kit will be coming with the 9ah battery only and cannot be removed for a cheaper price. This would be my only problem with it but looking forward to your results from your longer run to find out the range. Im guessing you have the 9ah bottle battery?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Thanks D8veh for your work. Have been waiting for these results.

Looks to me like its a good bit of kit. Im hopefully going to Redbridge on the 7th to try hub vs crank but so far from what i've read crank seems to have made the hub motors obsolete.

From Hattis reply (email) it would seem that the kit will be coming with the 9ah battery only and cannot be removed for a cheaper price. This would be my only problem with it but looking forward to your results from your longer run to find out the range. Im guessing you have the 9ah bottle battery?

No. I've got the Sirocco CD with 15 ah rack battery.

 

[flecc]

from what i've read crank seems to have made the hub motors obsolete.

There's been a big fight back by old and new makers of hub motors though.

d8veh has commented very favourably on the BPM hub motor and after years of just the dated Heinzmann, Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands are all producing new hub motors with various interesting attributes to suit all needs. Now SRAM have introduced an innovative automatic two speed gearbox rear hub motor ideal for simple use in the utility market, while BionX have introduced a variant of their DD hub motor incorporating a three speed hub gear. Shimano have made their first entry into the e-bike field with a complete hub motor system for e-bike makers named "Steps".

Even that arch exponent of crank drives, Panasonic, have been doing intriguing things with hub motors in the last two years. First a front hub motor with an integrated electronic brake, then a plain variant of that and now a new rear hub motor, a big departure for them.

So the hub motor is far from being extinct with such regeneration in new models and ideas.
.

 

[trex]

Hubs motors are far from becoming obsolete but d8veh spotted something special about the woosh cd though. It looks stealthier than any other crank drive and it is a lot cheaper than the Sunstar SO3+.
I'd like to know how fast the kit can go on 11T or 12T cassette.