YAMAHA EASY.. Old pedelec ebike but the 24v mid drive unit has potential

Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
Thanks d8veh. That suggestion sounds like a missing part of a puzzle I might never have come across without your intervention! :)

OK. Brilliant.

That might, (should), make all the difference.

It is blowing an absolute Barbara of a gale here at the moment so I won't experiment with first gear and Brewery Hill for now ... but a big thank you for your valuable info.

Cheers. :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
my Powabyke Euros have a similar PAS. What I really mean is ... the Yamaha Easy appears far more 'needy', requiring pedal power from a rider constantly before offering any reciprocated matching power.
The Yamaha, like the Lafree, is torque sensing, and in standard power mode has a 50/50 split on power. The motor matches what you put in, but no more. In Eco mode it only delivers half what you put in. And of course if the battery isn't delivering current freely, there can be further restriction of power.

The Powabyke Euro is one of the best climbing pedelecs, 600 watts gross and loads of torque at circa 7 mph. At its best the Yamaha won't match it.
.
 

Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
Right. Not a hill test as such but ... I've just done a small circuit of the town and discovered ECO mode. It is even more subtle than regular mode but it does exist!

The way I felt it was to simply switch the controller off ... cycle ... and then switch over to ECO quickly ... and cycle more.

Without ECO, the bike acts (or is) like a normal bicycle and, going up a modest incline, it takes a certain, energy draining, effort to cycle the machine.

Flipping the ECO switch simply takes the 'draining' part of the above sentence out of the equation! :) Meaning; effort still required but not an effort that would exhaust if demanded for, say, a straight 10 - 15 minutes.

So ... Subtle is the word to describe the Yamaha Easy's power assistance.

... and whereas, 30 minutes ago, I was contemplating selling her, (possibly) making a huge profit on my original £35 purchase, with d8veh's comment AND the ECO mode now found, (or experienced), I think I'm, just about, falling in love with my new purchase. :)

I think she is going to be great for the summer ... and she'd make a far more worthy, (and lightweight), 'guest' bike for friends and girlfriends than the Euro's I currently supply my band of merry friends. :)

EDIT. Written before I noticed Flecc's post. (Above)
 
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Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
Hi Flecc.

Your comments re the Yamaha Easy power delivery exactly match my own observations.

That said ... I recognise a super niche for the machine in my world ... as a "coast road" photography delivery system!!!

The Easy will have enough oomph to better serve my road excursions along parts of my beautiful coast, (exploring historical sites and taking photos), when compared to certain characteristics of my Euro's and my Xbike.

She's going to fit in just swell.

You're quite right about the Powabykes.

If you remember my original first post here of three years ago, Brand New Sky, http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/brand-new-sky.16600/ , I related that, aside from welcoming a robust, heavy ebike as part of some keep fit regime, I had chosen the Powabyke Euro because of its ability to tackle the very steep hills that make up my West Dorset coastal world.

My stable of Euros actually climb even better than standard Euros because I have lightweight DIY lithium packs as replacements for the regular, heavy SLAs the bikes normally carry.
 
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Deleted member 4366

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I would have thought that Off means off (no power), Eco mode is the low power mode and On is full power. Did you try comparing On and Eco? If On doesn't give any power, maybe there's something wrong with the switch.
 

Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
Another find ...

1.jpg

More treasure from the outhouse!

I don't know exactly what they are, what they were, originally, used for or when I aquired them but each one of these nimh packs delivers just 1.5ah each! (I have several) . However, what I do know is that each pack already has a 12v charging port ... though no pesky thermistors ... as far as I can see. Thus ... these dinky little battery packs can be utilised, singularly or in parallel, to easily power up my Easy!


It is great to keep up with technology, some latest innovation ... or even the neighbours ... but, speaking with my inventor's hat on, it is also a particular delight and pleasure to, sometimes, pare things down, prune things out and ... keep other things simple!

Now that my 'Easy' has, miraculously, transformed from inert, unknown quantity into dynamic, real world, working machine, a brand new collections of neurones start firing in my mind and I can set myself free from the hand wringing, mind taxing challenges discussed prior in this thread.

We have, collectively, (re)discovered the potential, scope and limitations of this senior but very elegant hunk of metal and, personally, I have now met up with a pedelec, (in the true meaning of the genre), that rides as smoothly and as gracefully as any regular, quality bicycle I have ever owned.

As my friend John H had observed when he first crossed paths with the machine in the auction, (before I had known of her), the actual quality of her components are impressive and, as can now be confirmed, the Easy, (to me), certainly does live up to the sentiment that John H had noted.

SO ... Like my other machines, the Easy will be configured to perform a particular, unique and bespoked role ... and she will fulfill a very simple remit.

Simple in as much as I won't, necessarily, need to build a lithium pack with BMS and / or a charger.

Range wise, I see her operating within a modest 6 - 8 mile radius of home, probably less, and that fact, (along with the ease I can pedal her even without assistance), allows me to easily explore several miles of the idyllic, historical and breathtaking scenery just a few miles from home here at Beach cottage.

If 6ah is capable of delivering me approx 20 miles range then two of these titchy 1.5ah nimh packs may deliver me the 10 mile range I envisage travelling when pursuing some photographic, detecting or angling adventure!

And if I design some modular interface to suit, perhaps, I can facilitate a simple 'plug in' arrangement that would allow me to add a third, fourth or fifth 'slot in' pack, (in parallel), to enhance range accordingly if needed.

I've had one pack on charge, (using a simple 12v 1A generic adaptor), and the pack is responding positively, greedily embibing electrons, so, the next part of the project will involve me creating the, previously mentioned, DIY modular interface ... with the only, (minor), anticipated issue being that I may, to begin with, have to charge each pack individually.

Not a major distraction ... and one I can design out at some later stage.

Lovely! :)
 

Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
I would have thought that Off means off (no power), Eco mode is the low power mode and On is full power. Did you try comparing On and Eco? If On doesn't give any power, maybe there's something wrong with the switch.
Hi d8veh,

Controller is now functioning 100%. All seems entirely up together and functioning. (A huge relief). :)

EDIT. After your comment regarding the necessity to be in 1st gear to benefit from torque based drive sensor, the little experiment I, (later), performed during my town circuit, (mentioned earlier), allowed me to familiarise myself with the subtle power settings that ON and ECO settings deliver.

Until I enlighted them, friends used to joke and comment that I was 'lazy' riding an ebike.

I used to explain, (in my reply to them), that riding an electric bike was more a partnership between rider and machine and NOT like simply hopping on a moped and expecting the thing to just take you places. (That simple fact had been a realisation to me also ... prior to ever riding an ebike myself).

This new experience of riding a true pedelec, (especially a mid drive crank one), is in a similar vein. Meaning; It is I, as pedelec rider, that have, (only just), realised that there is a diferent set of mechanics and style involved in appreciating / utilising the technology.

The fact I am having this experience on a, near, 20 year old machine probably denies me certain experiences associated with riding some modern, up to date, crank driven pedelec machine but ... I'm over my earlier, misplaced disappointment ... and love the Easy now!

I had noted, (in an earlier comment), that it was probably my expectations that needed tuning, rather than the machine letting me down, and, even in the last few hours, that observation has proved to be true!
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
The fact I am having this experience on a, near, 20 year old machine probably denies me certain experiences associated with riding some modern, up to date, crank driven pedelec machine
The deficit isn't as much as the age suggests, these Yamahas were well ahead of their time. In fact their motor unit has been revived in a virtual copy by the current Tonaro pedelecs, as you can see with their models on this link.
.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
Another find ...

View attachment 16926

More treasure from the outhouse!

I don't know exactly what they are, what they were, originally, used for or when I aquired them but each one of these nimh packs delivers just 1.5ah each! (I have several) . However, what I do know is that each pack already has a 12v charging port ... though no pesky thermistors ... as far as I can see. Thus ... these dinky little battery packs can be utilised, singularly or in parallel, to easily power up my Easy!


It is great to keep up with technology, some latest innovation ... or even the neighbours ... but, speaking with my inventor's hat on, it is also a particular delight and pleasure to, sometimes, pare things down, prune things out and ... keep other things simple!

Now that my 'Easy' has, miraculously, transformed from inert, unknown quantity into dynamic, real world, working machine, a brand new collections of neurones start firing in my mind and I can set myself free from the hand wringing, mind taxing challenges discussed prior in this thread.

We have, collectively, (re)discovered the potential, scope and limitations of this senior but very elegant hunk of metal and, personally, I have now met up with a pedelec, (in the true meaning of the genre), that rides as smoothly and as gracefully as any regular, quality bicycle I have ever owned.

As my friend John H had observed when he first crossed paths with the machine in the auction, (before I had known of her), the actual quality of her components are impressive and, as can now be confirmed, the Easy, (to me), certainly does live up to the sentiment that John H had noted.

SO ... Like my other machines, the Easy will be configured to perform a particular, unique and bespoked role ... and she will fulfill a very simple remit.

Simple in as much as I won't, necessarily, need to build a lithium pack with BMS and / or a charger.

Range wise, I see her operating within a modest 6 - 8 mile radius of home, probably less, and that fact, (along with the ease I can pedal her even without assistance), allows me to easily explore several miles of the idyllic, historical and breathtaking scenery just a few miles from home here at Beach cottage.

If 6ah is capable of delivering me approx 20 miles range then two of these titchy 1.5ah nimh packs may deliver me the 10 mile range I envisage travelling when pursuing some photographic, detecting or angling adventure!

And if I design some modular interface to suit, perhaps, I can facilitate a simple 'plug in' arrangement that would allow me to add a third, fourth or fifth 'slot in' pack, (in parallel), to enhance range accordingly if needed.

I've had one pack on charge, (using a simple 12v 1A generic adaptor), and the pack is responding positively, greedily embibing electrons, so, the next part of the project will involve me creating the, previously mentioned, DIY modular interface ... with the only, (minor), anticipated issue being that I may, to begin with, have to charge each pack individually.

Not a major distraction ... and one I can design out at some later stage.

Lovely! :)
The are nicad battery packs , probably used with pagers or mobile walkie talkies. .. think security guards. The peak voltage per cell is less than that of NIMH types and the power density less than 50%.
Cadmium is a poisonous metal and needs to be disposed of correctly.
NIMH and nicad have a failure mode by which thin filiments of the metal can form inside and punch through internal structure s and make a short circuit.

Some of these cells will have zero voltage across the terminal s, this signifies punch through. Occasionally these can be recovered by driving a high current for a short time.
Nicad need to be fully discharged before recharging.
These battery packs would probably have expected a charge\ discharge rates of 300mA and a charging time of 4 to 6 hours. Since your bike expects 10 15 amps will these be suitable.
 

Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
The deficit isn't as much as the age suggests, these Yamahas were well ahead of their time. In fact their motor unit has been revived in a virtual copy by the current Tonaro pedelecs, as you can see with their models on this link.
.
That's fascinating, Flecc ... and, further, very encouraging to know.

Yes, The Yamaha Easy was, if my memory recalls correctly, approx £1850 when new.

The mid drive unit still looks like a beautifully crafted piece of expensive kit ... and, obviously, is.

I had daydreamed about removing it, as a module, and using it with a fatbike / beach bike of mine but,

a) It doesn't look generic or standard as a unit and

b), as Shemozzle mentioned, (being a pedelec based motor), there may not be a throttle based controller for the thing anyway. (Do we know of one?)

I also doubt that the pedelec start / stop style of transportation would enjoy the soft shifting sands and shingle of my local coastal haunts.
 

Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
The are nicad battery packs , probably used with pagers or mobile walkie talkies. .. think security guards. The peak voltage per cell is less than that of NIMH types and the power density less than 50%.
Cadmium is a poisonous metal and needs to be disposed of correctly.
NIMH and nicad have a failure mode by which thin filiments of the metal can form inside and punch through internal structure s and make a short circuit.

Some of these cells will have zero voltage across the terminal s, this signifies punch through. Occasionally these can be recovered by driving a high current for a short time.
Nicad need to be fully discharged before recharging.
These battery packs would probably have expected a charge\ discharge rates of 300mA and a charging time of 4 to 6 hours. Since your bike expects 10 15 amps will these be suitable.
Ahh ...

Thanks for that important observation, Danidl,

I had, lazily, just glanced at the cells and assumed they were the nimh variety.

But not all is lost because the battery packs themselves may still serve as containers for modest lithium packs I could still craft and use as some modular system though I am a tad dismayed I allowed my excitement to get ahead of me. (and, obviously, a little red faced not to have done my homework properly)

ped bat.jpg

Still ... the modular interface idea did spring from the result of that folly so not all was lost! :)
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
Ahh ...

Thanks for that important observation, Danidl,

I had, lazily, just glanced at the cells and assumed they were the nimh variety.

But not all is lost because the battery packs themselves may still serve as containers for modest lithium packs I could still craft and use as some modular system though I am a tad dismayed I allowed my excitement to get ahead of me. (and, obviously, a little red faced not to have done my homework properly)

View attachment 16928

Still ... the modular interface idea did spring from the result of that folly so not all was lost! :)
Hi
I do not want to rain on your parade, and in light of the response you had to previous suggestions, cautious about advising, but .....
If using your NIMH cells , They only have at most 1.5 V and many are at around 1.35v , so each string required to get up to 25v will need 15 or 16 in series. Each string is good for around 1amp , so you need 10 strings. If your soldering is extremely good, you might get 100milliohm per connection, more typically it will be 5 times that . Each string will lose 15 x 0.1
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
Hi
I do not want to rain on your parade, and in light of the response you had to previous suggestions, cautious about advising, but .....
If using your NIMH cells , They only have at most 1.5 V and many are at around 1.35v , so each string required to get up to 25v will need 15 or 16 in series. Each string is good for around 1amp , so you need 10 strings. If your soldering is extremely good, you might get 100milliohm per connection, more typically it will be 5 times that . Each string will lose 15 x 0.1
... Inadvertent posting.... 1.5watt or 15watts in total. That is best case.
Using Li ion as the voltage per cell is 3.7, you are using 3 times less and the corresponding power loss reduced.
Any soldering failure in a string removes cap acity by 10% , commercial units are cross connected and spot-welded with copper or , nickel strips to minimise conduction losses

After all that work, you have a collection of cells of unknown providence , age and lifetimes any of which can fail. Unless you are in such a financial situation that this is attractive, I would advise that you go fishing instead.
I speak with some experience having attempted to build two battery packs using new NIMH cells by soldering , one set tabbed one set untagged. Both working , both unreliable.
 

Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
No worries, Danidl,

You possibly misunderstood a part of my thought processes ... or I failed to explain myself clearly.

Virtually the moment you highlighted the packs were Nicad, I mentally aborted all further thought of using those cells, (or assembling nimh cells to do similar), because I reminded myself that I could simply knock up a lithium pack using the nicad battery cases. And, obviously, I could, alternately, just make the Easy a regular 8, 10, 12ah or whatever DIY lithium pack sitting on the rear rack if I wanted.

Anyway. No. I have no interest in using nicads whatsoever.

I do, however, have an interest in using the nicad containers, (the cases), to squeeze in some lithium cells to make a 12v 5.4ah pack ... and then repeat the process to make a 2nd 12v 5.4ah pack.

Together, the two packs would be useful for all sorts of portable applications OR, if connected in series, might make a petite 24v 5.4ah battery for running ... a Yamaha Easy pedelec machine a dozen miles or so? :)

Cells.jpg

Why would I even bother?

Well. The fact that the Easy runs at 24v is of interest, space and weight wise, as far as making lithium packs is concerned. Plus, the fact that the mid drive unity is very efficient also lends itself to the idea of being powered by only a modest little pack. (Well, 2 packs in series).

I have these (former) Nicad battery pack containers to hand and they lend themselves to making a dinky little set of 12v lithium batteries that, as an added bonus, offers me a chance to power the Yamaha.

I don't often solder lithium cells for obvious reasons, (BOOM!) and because, as you point out, solder offers more resistance, not being very efficient at keeping all those cute little electrons running up and down at a decent pace! (I use spot welded nickel tabs).

Actually, if you look at the space I have to work with, (or lack of), in the photo above, you can see that soldered wires would not even be an option.

Anyway ... that was / is my line of thinking ... though I don't really qualify it as a project. Rather, I just want to bung some lithium cells in that handy battery pack and make some use of it! :)
 

Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
12 actually.jpg
Staggering the cells actually allows 12 of them, (rather than 9), to be installed in the battery case ... offering a healthy 7.2ah x 12v capacity.

2 in series would give my Easy a 30+ range? :)
 
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Deleted member 4366

Guest
12 is no good. They'll be the wrong voltage. You need 7S lithium for your bike, which means 14, 21 or 28 cells.

I wouldn't waste my time with old recycled 18650s. They'll sag terribly under load. They're only suitable if you're going to use loads of them to make an over-weight battery, like at least 7S10P. Expect to get a realistic 1 amp from each cell.

Have a look at the 24v lithium batteries on Aliexpress.
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
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Ireland
Hi d8veh
The heart has reasons that the mind cannot follow, it's his time to waste not ours. Yours is the voice of rational reasoning he is following another path. Happy Christmas
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Hi d8veh
The heart has reasons that the mind cannot follow, it's his time to waste not ours. Yours is the voice of rational reasoning he is following another path. Happy Christmas
That's true, but we got our voices of rational reasoning by trying all these things to see what works and what doesn't,

One time, when I was about 15 years old in the Headmaster's office, he said, "There's three types of people: Clever people learn from other people's mistakes; normal people learn by their own mistakes; and thickos never learn. Let's hope that you're in the second category because, clearly, you're not in the first category otherwise you wouldn't be here." I've certainly made a lot of mistakes over the years and learnt a lot from them, so I claim category 2.
 

Beach Thorncombe

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
127
47
United Kingdom
Following another path?

Of course I am ... though it dismays me to feel my ears burning.

"Judgments prevent us from seeing the good that lies beyond appearances."

Wayne W. Dyer


Hi d8veh,

I agree … and I accept … a traditional DIY ebike lithium pack is usually configured as you state and, of course, I could make a space saving, lightweight pack using various combinations of 7 cells as you, rightly, highlight, if (as I have mentioned previously), I simply made a routine, bespoked, battery pack up from scratch.

However … (Have you noticed? I always like to add a “however”), I hold a personal philosophy, (and live in a fictional world), I like to describe as Planet Generica!

On Planet Generica, (an alternative reality that only exists deep, deep within my own mind), society runs on a mindset where everything, (every manufactured product), is conceived, designed and utilised to counter or nullify any threat of redundancy or waste!

It is a world where every product has to demonstrate an ability to hold a second life or a second purpose if and when its main role ceases due to wear, tear, age or entropy.

On Planet Generica, a manufactured product must demonstrate this second life characteristic to even be considered a worthy benefit to society and products failing to adopt such a recyclable or re-usable function or purpose are viewed as cynical, profit driven, products deemed unethical or taboo.

I’ll give a trite example of an appalling 21st century product in a moment, highlight a useful contemporary system – and provide an example of an existing, everyday throwaway consumer product that might be re-engineered to earn a Planet Generica (P-Gen™) seal of approval. :)

BTW. This is just a light hearted, tongue in cheek, post to let you see what sometimes ticks away in my mind from time to time!

OK. Now I am back in the room! :)

Having read the above, you may now be slightly aware of my own philosophical mindset so let me return to the battery cell container I have become fascinated with.

I like it because it has a simple set of three pins … and a standard charging port! OK. Sure, it is a God awful, awkward shape, (and would fail a P.Gen™ seal of approval), but the idea of re-using the container or creating a SIMPLE universal interface to connect several together, just appeals to my quirky nature.

Perhaps all of the above sounds bizarre or unattainable as a system for society to adopt, (especially after so many millions of individual products and devices have already been manufactured since the birth of the Industrial Revolution BUT … if we were to adopt my Planet Generica philosophy on some new world, (Like Mars … which is on the cusp of being colonised), Mankind would be able to build a new, off world, civilisation where waste, redundancy and the plundering of limited resources could be managed far more efficiently than on our existing planet.

It would become a world where every consumer product, motor, lighting system, electronic motherboard and battery module could be harvested, utilised, installed or re-engineered to hold a second, meaningful purpose … rather than being discarded or dumped as some, worthless, scrap of junk!

Examples.

What I mention now is a petty, minor example of modern waste. It isn’t some profound example but it is one I often relate when discussing this topic.

Example of a badly designed product. (Below)

A Pringles lid

A Pringles lid seals a tubular pack of savoury crisps … and we throw away, (or possibly recycle), said lid when we have consume our Pringles.

Meanwhile, someone else buys their dog a can of pet food … and while they are in the supermarket, they decide to buy a set of 3 “plastic re-sealable tin can lids” to seal part used cans of baked beans or dog food … for £2.45.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PET-FOOD-CAN-COVER-LIDS-DOG-CAT-PETS-TIN-LID-PLASTIC-REUSABLE-COVERS-CAPS-TOP-/121564784973

How come a plastic Pringles lid is a couple of mm too large to seal a regular tin can … and therefore viewed as a waste by product … while other consumers have to BUY a near identical, (slightly smaller plastic lid), to seal their baked beans or pet food cans?*

Example of a decent universal system. (Below)

A USB port

A reasonable example of a universal electrical interface.

I’d give it a hurray and a tick … but would scold Apple for using idiosyncratic ports and cables … to ensure they could charge a premium by selling extortionately priced add ons totally against any P-Gen ™ principle ... to suit their bank balance)

Example of applying PGen ™ principle. (Below)

A plastic milk container

With a little design and ingenuity, a humble plasic milk container could be transformed into a Lego style building block … (Made stackable or connectible).

Instead of being discarded, they could be utilised to form screens, insulation or varying structures.

Filled with water, they would make robust, stackable / interconnecting plastic bricks, (for garden features, construction shuttering or temporary barriers), and, if sold in pastel colours, could be re-used as children’s building blocks or Wendy style houses!

But, Yes d8veh, I hear you.

My idea of utilising an old, redundant battery pack case has its flaws, but, as I have now explained, I was simply playing with the idea of giving a redundant object some new purpose … some second life.

That sentiment also applies to the old recycled cells you, yourself, dismiss.

Last thought …

Perhaps … 3D printing will, (perversely), complement my Planet Generica philosophy one of these days.

On the surface, such a device should seem like an abomination to me, (further creating bespoked, one off, objects to solve some problem), but, at least, with a 3D printer, we would be able to create plastic or metal interfaces, junctions or mating connections to make a square peg fit a round hole!

Ha ha :)

Happy Christmas, Pedelecers





*Unless Kellogg’s have come to their senses and made their Pringle lids COMPATIBLE with the billions of tin cans manufactured each year.
 
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