Woosh Santana CD gearchange quality

[trex]

dave, what's the point of paying extra for a crank drive to ride flat roads?
The cost of the NuVinci is only justified if you buy a premium bike. The Santana CD is about the cheapest bike you can buy, spend £300 on a £800 bike for the gearbox? not me.
On flat roads, torque sensor is nicest, medium hills: BPM motor is nicest, on very steep hills: crank drives.
The Santana CD has full power throttle, It's just a matter of learning how to use it to shift gears with the motor. No CD gear system is going to shift very easily on steep hills because of the high load, not even the NuVinci and I am willing to bet that once you spend 5 minutes to learn the trick, a derailleur is going to last as long as a NuVinci.

 

[Kudoscycles]

dave, what's the point of paying extra for a crank drive to ride flat roads?
The cost of the NuVinci is only justified if you buy a premium bike. The Santana CD is about the cheapest bike you can buy, spend £300 on a £800 bike for the gearbox? not me.
On flat roads, torque sensor is nicest, medium hills: BPM motor is nicest, on very steep hills: crank drives.
The Santana CD has full power throttle, It's just a matter of learning how to use it to shift gears with the motor. No CD gear system is going to shift very easily on steep hills because of the high load, not even the NuVinci and I am willing to bet that once you spend 5 minutes to learn the trick, a derailleur is going to last as long as a NuVinci.

Really Trex,you ought to get out more...the Nuvinci can be fitted OEM for £100 extra per bikes...the BPM is the best system for power on steep hills and no derailleur is ever going to outlast the Nuvinci hub because it is inevitable that a crank drive without power control will inevitably destroy the derailleur gears.
I don't sell bikes to conjurors who are ambidextrous and pedidextrous (lovely word) at the same time,I sell them to normal people who just want to ride an e-bike without special skills.
I cannot believe this thread...if you went to buy an XYZ cheapie car and the salesman told you that to change gear you had to turn the power off,dip the clutch,select your gear,turn the power on,ease the clutch up whilst feathering the throttle....even pre synchromesh days were easier than that!
Electric bikes are becoming very user friendly and to appeal to most people that is what they rightfully want.
I suspect that you have not ridden a BPM motored e-bike,they are a quantum leap forward and just do everything so well,without complications,that at current R&D levels it seems strange to consider anything else.The KTM e-Panasonic ,Kudos performance series,BH Neos all use similar motors and I am told there are many more in the pipeline,I bet Eurobike will be full of them.
Bosch developed the crank drive when the hub drive was lacking developing and we all became slaves to CD technology but this e-bike business is rapidly developing and the pendulum is definitely swinging back towards hub drive,because of the Bafang BPM motor.
KudosDave

 

[JohnCade]

Hell, I learnt to double declutch on my fathers Humber, and heel and toe double declutch on a fifties crashbox Morris flatbed lorry. It came in handy on the ten years old XK140 I bought when I was nineteen and which had knackered synchromesh, and wouldn't change otherwise without sending a telegram first.

I must be a prestidigitator, pedidextrous, and ambidextrous then because this Woosh change really ain't very hard.

 

[trex]

Really Trex,you ought to get out more...the Nuvinci can be fitted OEM for £100 extra per bikes...the BPM is the best system for power on steep hills and no derailleur is ever going to outlast the Nuvinci hub because it is inevitable that a crank drive without power control will inevitably destroy the derailleur gears.
I don't sell bikes to conjurors who are ambidextrous and pedidextrous (lovely word) at the same time,I sell them to normal people who just want to ride an e-bike without special skills.
I cannot believe this thread...if you went to buy an XYZ cheapie car and the salesman told you that to change gear you had to turn the power off,dip the clutch,select your gear,turn the power on,ease the clutch up whilst feathering the throttle....even pre synchromesh days were easier than that!
Electric bikes are becoming very user friendly and to appeal to most people that is what they rightfully want.
I suspect that you have not ridden a BPM motored e-bike,they are a quantum leap forward and just do everything so well,without complications,that at current R&D levels it seems strange to consider anything else.The KTM e-Panasonic ,Kudos performance series,BH Neos all use similar motors and I am told there are many more in the pipeline,I bet Eurobike will be full of them.
Bosch developed the crank drive when the hub drive was lacking developing and we all became slaves to CD technology but this e-bike business is rapidly developing and the pendulum is definitely swinging back towards hub drive,because of the Bafang BPM motor.
KudosDave

The light version of NuVinci costs $200 in China. The older, heavier is cheaper. By the time somebody imports it, add a wheel to it, add VAT to it it will be £300. Waste of money for the number of times it may beat the derailleur.

how many gears do you need to climb hills?

on an easy hill, only gear 3 or 4
on a medium hill, only gear 2 or 3.
on a steep hill, only gear 1 or 2.

you don't need to be pedi-nimble, the trick is not to pedal when changing gears.
The Santana CD can get to 15mph on gear 4 on throttle alone so why bother changing more than once or twice? You've got a big fat battery, just use the throttle to climb hills.
PS: The Santana CD is quite nice to ride on gear 4.

 

[Kudoscycles]

how many gears do you need to climb hills?

on an easy hill, only gear 3 or 4
on a medium hill, only gear 2 or 3.
on a steep hill, only gear 1 or 2.

you don't need to be pedi-nimble, you've got a big fat battery, just use the throttle to climb hills. You only need 3 gears on the Santana CD: 2, 3 and 4. You can get to 15mph on gear 4 on throttle alone so why bother changing?

The light version of NuVinci costs $200 in China. The older, heavier is cheaper. By the time somebody imports it, add a wheel to it, add VAT to it it will be £300. Waste of money for the number of times it may beat the derailleur. The rest of the time, it makes the bike wobbly if you fiddle with it.

Trex, sorry I just don't know where you get your prices/info from,the old Nuvinci was expensive not cheaper,Nuvinci released the product badly,it was too heavy,sluggish and too expensive.
They redesigned the unit,made it half the weight and reduced the price. However recently the manufacturing has been moved from California to Nanking,the price at OEM level has dropped considerably,it costs considerably less than 200 dollars from China,it only adds £100 to an OEM bike.
You do seem to be an expert but did not answer my question,I repeat have you ridden a BPM motored bike?
Which bike did you ride that had a Nuvinci hub fitted that made the bike wobbly?
KudosDave

 

[trex]

yes, I have and I don't like them much, too much like motorbikes. They take the bike feel away. My favorite for flat roads is the torque sensor but it's not very good on hill nor very fast. The crank drives are still best compromise for speed, power, balance and low noise. I think I will look for light weight next time.

 

[Jason Scott]

This is a fascinating discussion, especially to one looking at bikes and weighing up the pros and cons of CD vs BPM. What i find interesting is that the charts over at Wooshbikes clearly show the CD bikes can climb hills better. But I'm told it evens out if you factor in gear changes. But would you not quickly learn the optimum gear for any given hill and just change to it in anticipation?

Being able to climb a 15% hill on throttle alone! doing 6.5mph is enticing.

 

[dmsims]

Jason you assume that hills are a constant gradient - they are not

Look at the gradients on this 400ft hill

Changing gear using the "method" means you can come to a standstill

 

[Kudoscycles]

yes, I have and I don't like them much, too much like motorbikes. They take the bike feel away. My favorite for flat roads is the torque sensor but it's not very good on hill nor very fast. The crank drives are still best compromise for speed, power, balance and low noise. I think I will look for light weight next time.

Trex...you must be aware that I answer your postings point by point but you respond selectively and at a distraction to mine. I repeat,which BPM motored bike did you ride that you based your very definite decisions upon?
Which bike did you ride with a Nuvinci hub that made the bike wobbly to ride? Which bikes felt like motorbikes?
Which bike do you ride?
The Kudos Arriba and Escape both have the German Thun torque sensor,they have the same speed and uphill performance to the speed sensor Kudos Tornado and Typhoon. But the torque sensor requires some rider input to gain that power whereas the speed sensor gives it with little rider input. All these bikes are BPM motored,they are the closest I have ridden to normal bikes and have no motorbike feel.
The strength of the BPM motor is endorsed by the latest Oxygen MTB bike winning the Bristol uphill race,that bike is speed sensor.
Jason..I know of no legal e-bike that can climb steep hills on throttle alone...at last years Redbridge event,with 50 plus bikes there was not one bike that managed Hog Hill without pedalling.
KudosDave

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It'll be interesting to see whether any can manage it this year in August. It's true that no OEM bike could do it last year, but don't forget that I was there last year with my double-motored Rocky Mountain, and Saneagle was there on his 30 amp CST powered Kraken. They could both complete a lap without pedalling as can be seen at 4:30 on this video where the steepest part of the circuit is:

 

[dmsims]

That looks flat

what gradient is it ?

 

[Kudoscycles]

D8veh,as you say no OEM bike could match that,but what power were you pulling on the steepest bit towards the end? You must also admit that it did labour up the hill,I suspect that hill was probably less than 15 per cent,15 per cent is 1 in 7?,that is very steep.
We ran the circuit the opposite direction this May, I rode many of the Kudos bikes and the Haibike and KTM bikes,not one would make it up the hill without pedalling,only a couple of bikes had throttles but it is easy to get max power under the PAS so I cannot see how a throttle would have made any difference.
It's a shame there is no standard for these e-bikes like that available for bikes and cars,with independent testing... We can all make claims for hill climbing ability,range,recharge times but in reality it is impossible to check the validity of these claims...I still remember the Dutch guys at a show who claimed 100 km out of a 10 Ah battery,the bike was identical to my Kudos Liberty bike,that manages 30-35 miles on average,they got quite annoyed when I challenged them to that claim....mind you there was a week's beers on the table from the loser!!!!!no sense of humour these Dutch,hehe!!!!
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

That looks flat

what gradient is it ?

It's probably 10 per cent at the very steepest bit,someone did GSM it last year.
KudosDave

 

[dmsims]

And there is the madness

The Santana CD is supposed to climb a 15% hill at 6.5mph on throttle

????????????????

It's probably 10 per cent at the very steepest bit,someone did GSM it last year.
KudosDave

 

[Geebee]

My Tonaro would complete that course without pedalling, it would be slow up hill but would complete it easily.
Did any one try with a Tonaro?

I keep wondering if I should go to a hub on my trike because of all the positive threads about their ability to climb and then see this that shows they can't climb unless assisted or illegal.

 

[trex]

Trex...you must be aware that I answer your postings point by point but you respond selectively and at a distraction to mine. I repeat,which BPM motored bike did you ride that you based your very definite decisions upon?
Which bike did you ride with a Nuvinci hub that made the bike wobbly to ride? Which bikes felt like motorbikes?
Which bike do you ride?
The Kudos Arriba and Escape both have the German Thun torque sensor,they have the same speed and uphill performance to the speed sensor Kudos Tornado and Typhoon. But the torque sensor requires some rider input to gain that power whereas the speed sensor gives it with little rider input. All these bikes are BPM motored,they are the closest I have ridden to normal bikes and have no motorbike feel.
The strength of the BPM motor is endorsed by the latest Oxygen MTB bike winning the Bristol uphill race,that bike is speed sensor.
Jason..I know of no legal e-bike that can climb steep hills on throttle alone...at last years Redbridge event,with 50 plus bikes there was not one bike that managed Hog Hill without pedalling.
KudosDave

I come to Southend a few times a year, Woosh let me take their bikes out for a spin and usually use Pier hill to test, sometimes they need feedback on their prototypes

it's steep alright.

 

[shemozzle999]

I keep wondering if I should go to a hub on my trike because of all the positive threads about their ability to climb and then see this that shows they can't climb unless assisted or illegal.

Well it looks like the industry has made a second leap on behalf of their customers and gone from prematurely introducing 250W motors to now introducing these newly reclassified "250W" motors with the easy ability to de-restrict the speed limit - I wonder if these would be considered OK under the DfT concessions - any one asked them?

 

[trex]

customers always have the choice.

 

[shemozzle999]

Yes, we now have the choice to purchase cloaked S class machines without fear of prosecution

 

[Jason Scott]

And there is the madness

The Santana CD is supposed to climb a 15% hill at 6.5mph on throttle

????????????????

This is my point. The charts and text say the CD can do this but the BPM Big Bear cannot. Where does the truth lie?

Having said that, many people are saying the BPM is the better choice and I think I believe them