Wisper Wayfarer - hard to ride

Hi all,

 

I picked up a Wisper Wayfarer H9 today. I needed to get the bike home as it was just about to start raining so chose not to use the electrics (so the dealer didn't have to spend time explaining things).

 

Boy was it hard to ride, I'm used to 15 or so miles bike rides with many towing the dog (23Kg) in a trailer, normally I'm not out of breath, but during and after the ride home (around 5 miles of mainly flat roads)) I was absolutely knackered.

 

Checked the bike over and couldn't see anything wrong. Just been out this time using the electrics and it's the same, obviously you can feel the motor but it seems so difficult to ride, almost as though the brakes are on, which they aren't.

 

I've parked the bike up until Tuesday when I can speak to the dealer about it.

 

Is there anyone out there with a Wayfarer who could tell me how easily their bike rides. Thanks very much.

Maybe the battery wasn't charged, any ebike is easy to ride with power.

I don't understand what you said. Either the wheels spin freely or not, which you can test by lifting the bike up and spinning them by hand. If they spin freely, the bike would be the same as any bike with an additional 10kg load. It can't be harder than towing a 23kg trailer.

I didn't use the battery on the way home. I fully charged the battery before I eventually tried it out, on the eco setting, even though you could feel the motor, it was hard to maintain 10 MPH (on the display).

 

The wheels do spin free and the pedals go around easily. With no power on it is definetly harder to ride than the old bike with trailer (trailer is around 15kg + 23Kg dog). The old bike was a Raleigh Pioneer 3, with a 3 speed SRAM hub, so not exactly the best bike out there.

I didn't use the battery on the way home. I fully charged the battery before I eventually tried it out, on the eco setting, even though you could feel the motor, it was hard to maintain 10 MPH (on the display).

 

The wheels do spin free and the pedals go around easily. With no power on it is definetly harder to ride than the old bike with trailer (trailer is around 15kg + 23Kg dog). The old bike was a Raleigh Pioneer 3, with a 3 speed SRAM hub, so not exactly the best bike out there.

That's not possible. Forces obey the laws of physics. With the motor switched off, there is nothing attached to the wheels that can slow you down, and you confirmed that they spin freely. You must have been going uphill or into a strong headwind.

I'm in Lincolnshire, in places it's almost like a billiard table and no real wind on Saturday when I picked the bike up. I'm beginning to think that the tyres have a very high rolling resistance.

;)You are in too high a gear.

I'm in Lincolnshire, in places it's almost like a billiard table and no real wind on Saturday when I picked the bike up. I'm beginning to think that the tyres have a very high rolling resistance.

Maybe the nap on the billiard table has been brushed the wrong way!

I'm beginning to think that the tyres have a very high rolling resistance.

There once was an e-bike sold as both a hybrid/roadster, and as an alternative choice, an MTB: Same frame, same 60nm centre-drive motor, same brakes... identical in all respects except forks and tyres. Those here on the forum who bought the MTB complained of high resistance and unacceptable drag. Those who bought the roadster complained of nothing.

 

I bought the roadster version. 1000 miles later and still no complaints at all.

 

I did later swap the tyres from CST with a narrow fast rolling centre tread to Schwalbe Marathon Plus - heck, you really do notice the drag then. So yes, I'd agree, tyre resistance is a major factor in perceived resistance/drag.

Hi Dag, thanks for choosing a Wisper Wayfarer. I don't understand why didn't you turn the power on, ebikes in general work perfectly in the rain and ours certainly do? The Wayfarer will be hard to ride without power, it's a heavy electric bike. I am impressed you rode it that far without power.

 

I am sure that the tyres will have been a part of the issue especially if they were not fully inflated. They are huge tyres, developed to soak up the bumps on the road and are chosen specifically for use with the motor.

 

Please let me know how you get on when you turn the power on?

 

All the best, David

Thanks for all the replies.

 

Just been out on the bike and everything is working OK. Maybe there was some wind last Saturday which I hadn't realised, though it could have been the nap or possibly the curvature of the earth. The tyres were pumped up quite hard.

 

The speed control doesn't work as I expected and that was probably the problem when I first tried the electrics, I had it in ECO where the assistance runs out about 8.8 MPH, I was riding about 10 - 11 MPH, so in effect was getting no assistance.

 

Now I understand it a bit better, as far as I'm concerned, the bike does everything I wanted. Though it is a bit heavy, as long as there's little wind, it is relatively easy to ride without power. Just did about 6 miles and only turned the power on for the last mile or so as I could see rain coming in the distance.

 

In case anyone is wondering. For me the idea behind getting an E-Bike was to ride out using no electrics and then use the motor to get me home, doing it that way I should get a decent range.

 

David, I'm sure that the electrics / bike will be OK in the rain but I prefer not to get things wet if I can help it.

 

Overall I can now say that I'm made up with the bike.

That's why in the main we always recommend KT for there current control, you don't get the speed limits like speed control. With current control you get the same speed in all 5 Pas levels, you just use the PAS level for more or less power.

That's why in the main we always recommend KT for there current control, you don't get the speed limits like speed control. With current control you get the same speed in all 5 Pas levels, you just use the PAS level for more or less power.

I was thinking the same. The current control in a KT controller allows you to select level 1, which gives a constamt power just enough to overcome the weight of an ebike and a little more, regardless of speed. Riding my ebike on level 1 takes more or less the same effort to ride my non-electric road bike at similar speeds.

 

There are other controllers that use current control. I can't understand why it's not more widely used, as nearly everybody that tries it prefers it.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

Just been out on the bike and everything is working OK. Maybe there was some wind last Saturday which I hadn't realised, though it could have been the nap or possibly the curvature of the earth. The tyres were pumped up quite hard.

 

The speed control doesn't work as I expected and that was probably the problem when I first tried the electrics, I had it in ECO where the assistance runs out about 8.8 MPH, I was riding about 10 - 11 MPH, so in effect was getting no assistance.

 

Now I understand it a bit better, as far as I'm concerned, the bike does everything I wanted. Though it is a bit heavy, as long as there's little wind, it is relatively easy to ride without power. Just did about 6 miles and only turned the power on for the last mile or so as I could see rain coming in the distance.

 

In case anyone is wondering. For me the idea behind getting an E-Bike was to ride out using no electrics and then use the motor to get me home, doing it that way I should get a decent range.

 

David, I'm sure that the electrics / bike will be OK in the rain but I prefer not to get things wet if I can help it.

 

Overall I can now say that I'm made up with the bike.

 

Great to hear you are enjoying the bike!

Well thoughts change with experience.

 

What a horrible and possibly dangerous electric system speed control is. I didn't get a bike for it to dictate to me that I should be riding at a certain speed.

 

We rode about 14 miles today down mainly quiet single track country roads, she has a Batribike and her speed control works to different speeds to mine, how on earth do you ride together? In the end I switched mine off after an incident with a passing car. I was on the "tour" setting which works to keep you at around 10.6MPH. I stopped to let a car passed (coming towards us) but then needed to pull forward to the left to give him a bit more room. Used the pedals a little bit and it was off, slammed the brakes on but the motor was still at full power for a second or so, good job the bike was not directed towards the car or the ditch that was at the side of the road. In my opinion dangerous and a real safety issue. The only plus point is that I've now got a e-bike with infinite battery range!

 

As Neath and VFR400 have indicated, e-bikes should all have a torque sensor instead of a speed controller. I'm not 100% certain how a speed controller can be described as "assist" as all as it does it force you to ride at a certain speed unless you want to keep stopping the pedals.

 

I strongly suggest to anyone considering an electric bike that they try both a speed controller and a torque sensor and consider the enviroment that they will be using the bike before deciding what's right. Don't buy a bike without a test ride regardless of Covid "rules". I'm not sure how people go on with speed controller e-bikes in city traffic, it must be a nightmare!

Used the pedals a little bit and it was off, slammed the brakes on but the motor was still at full power for a second or so.

Your brake sensors should have cut off the motor as soon as you touched the brakes (even before the brakes engaged).

As Neath and VFR400 have indicated, e-bikes should all have a torque sensor

You've mistaken what we've said. We differentiate between controllers that use speed control and those that use power control for the pedal assist.

 

Speed control sets a different target speed for each level of power assist, all with an algorithm that gives full power until your actual speed gets close to the target speed, then it ramps it down. Power control gives a different power for each pedal assist level up to the maximum speed set (normally 15.5 mph). I prefere the latter. Both types of controller normally use speed control for the throttle.

 

Controllers can use torque sensors in two ways, which are as a yes/no for pedalling or they can use them to tell the controller how hard you are pedalling. The various types of controller then have three options: speed control and power control as above, or they can use torque multiplication, where they give power in relation to how hard you pedal. Some combine all three methods so you get power that depends on bike speed, pedal speed and how hard you pedal.

 

I'm not in favour of torque multiplying sytems on their own. I prefer a power control pedal assist with a speed contrtol throttle. A torque multiplying system with a speed control throttle would be my next choice, but there aren't many of them around since throttles were banned. I think Neal shares my views on this from what i've read in his posts.

 

Regarding your problem, some controllers run on more than others. There's a standard which ebikes must comply with to be sold, which is EN15194. The requirement is that the power must stop after you stop pedalling within 2M. It can go up to 5M if the bike is fitted with a brake switch, which cuts the power as soon as you apply the brake. I'd be very surprised if your bike doesn't comply with that standard. If it doesn't, you'd need to talk to the shop that sold it.

 

Test your brakes to see if either of them cuts the power. If one does, then that's the brake to pull to stop the run-on. Normally, you should use both brakes to stop.

As Neath and VFR400 have indicated, e-bikes should all have a torque sensor instead of a speed controller. I'm not 100% certain how a speed controller can be described as "assist" as all as it does it force you to ride at a certain speed unless you want to keep stopping the pedals.

be a nightmare!

 

Not torque sensor as this indicates the PAS drive system . But current control, how the controller delivers the power. The Chinese express this as torque simulation not to be confused with torque sensing.

It seems as though there was something wrong with my interpretation of the terminology, sorry. I thought there were just two types of control, one of which was speed and the other which was torque (as it sensed how hard you were pushing on the pedals). I think torque is the way to go, I also think that it is wrong to descibe the speed control type as "pedal assist", but that's just my opinion.

 

I've always used both brakes when slowing down or stopping. I've just checked, there's no connection on the bike between the brakes and the electrics. The motor was still trying to turn and only cut out just before the bike stopped, I could feel the front brake juddering as it was trying to stop the bike. I couldn't say whether or not it stopped within 5 metres as I was panicking at the time, though I suspect it did. Come to think about it a couple of years ago my missus tested a Volt Kensington and prior to the test the dealer warned her of reports of some bikes unexpectedly "taking off" if the pedals were knocked.

 

Anyway you live and learn. Was out today on the old bike, a much nicer ride, with suprisingly much better brakes.

I've just checked, there's no connection on the bike between the brakes and the electrics. The motor was still trying to turn and only cut out just before the bike stopped, I could feel the front brake juddering as it was trying to stop the bike.

Certainly sounds as if you had an incomplete setup for your electric system speed control ; no brake sensors. (The sensors will be at the lever not at the brakes themselves.) Your complaint above about such a setup is very pertinent; but your conclusion to damn all speed/cadence control systems isn't.

 

Was it the Wisper Wayfarer H9 that had the problems you described in pose #15? I'm not sure what the control arrangements are on that, but it seems very unlikely Wisper would have one with the unsafe setup you described.

The controller types depend on the system used a simple cadence type PAS uses either speed control or current control, the latter is far more user friendly. Experiences of the two are generally chalk and cheese. Both systems don't rely on torque /rider pressure on the pedals but just simple every day rotation.

 

Other type of PAS system is the torque multiplier/TM not to be confused with current control. Torque multiplier relies on the rider to be able to give good power input, it then senses the ride pressure/input and multiplies this up to 300%. this in the main domain of intergrated mid drive motors on most of the major brands though TM is also available on hub drive bikes.

Suntour HESC is one such system and has it's faults, there are also bike kits available that use TM these use special controllers and replacement bottom bracket or like the kit Woosh was selling a controller integrated in to the crank wheel unit supplied.

Well thoughts change with experience.

 

What a horrible and possibly dangerous electric system speed control is. I didn't get a bike for it to dictate to me that I should be riding at a certain speed.

 

We rode about 14 miles today down mainly quiet single track country roads, she has a Batribike and her speed control works to different speeds to mine, how on earth do you ride together? In the end I switched mine off after an incident with a passing car. I was on the "tour" setting which works to keep you at around 10.6MPH. I stopped to let a car passed (coming towards us) but then needed to pull forward to the left to give him a bit more room. Used the pedals a little bit and it was off, slammed the brakes on but the motor was still at full power for a second or so, good job the bike was not directed towards the car or the ditch that was at the side of the road. In my opinion dangerous and a real safety issue. The only plus point is that I've now got a e-bike with infinite battery range!

 

As Neath and VFR400 have indicated, e-bikes should all have a torque sensor instead of a speed controller. I'm not 100% certain how a speed controller can be described as "assist" as all as it does it force you to ride at a certain speed unless you want to keep stopping the pedals.

 

I strongly suggest to anyone considering an electric bike that they try both a speed controller and a torque sensor and consider the enviroment that they will be using the bike before deciding what's right. Don't buy a bike without a test ride regardless of Covid "rules". I'm not sure how people go on with speed controller e-bikes in city traffic, it must be a nightmare!

Hello Dag,

Very sorry to hear of your issue. The Wayfarer H7 uses a cadence system so as soon as you turn the pedals the power will kick in. However, the motor should stop as soon as you stop pedalling, therefor I'm very surprised to hear the motor was still going. Please contact the dealer you purchased the bike from to investigate and we will get this issue resolved for you as this is not how a Wisper bike is expected to perform.

All the best

Tim

Hello Dag,

Very sorry to hear of your issue. The Wayfarer H7 uses a cadence system

 

I don't know how pertinent it is, but Dag1 says he has an H9.

I don't know how pertinent it is, but Dag1 says he has an H9.

Very sorry my mistake. The H7 and H9 are just the two different frame shapes of our wayfarer hub drive so doesn't affect performance.

 

all the best

....no brake sensors. (The sensors will be at the lever not at the brakes themselves.) Your complaint above about such a setup is very pertinent.

 

Was it the Wisper Wayfarer H9 that had the problems you described in pose #15? I'm not sure what the control arrangements are on that, but it seems very unlikely Wisper would have one with the unsafe setup you described.

 

I know this is an old thread but it's a current bike in the Wisper range so i think its worth confirming his safety issues, our Wisper Wayfarer H7 cadence also doesn't have motor cut-off sensors wired into the brake levers.

It's especially unnerving when negotiating bollards or metal barriers at the start of pathways you have to go left, right, left to get through, even more so because this is my girlfriends ebike. Half a turn of the pedals initiates the motor and the brakes don't cut the power so you have a bike trying to lurch forward with vigor for a couple of seconds until the motor cuts.

My Woosh rambletta has the brake lever motor cut off sensors but Wisper doesn't.