Wisper: SO hard to pedal without power

[allen-uk]

I know I've raised a similar point before, but as it is now about 2 months since I started riding my brand-new 905se City, I'll ask it again on the basis of a little bit of experience.

Despite problems (age, 1 leg, weight), I can ride an ordinary bike. Not fast, but adequately. I can mount, get away from standing starts, pedal, get up some hills, and so on.

But on the Wisper, as soon as I turn the power OFF, I'm struggling - on the flat, that is. Getting away from a standing start nearly always means using the throttle, unless it's slightly downhill. If I lift the rear of the bike, the back wheel will spin fairly freely on freewheel, but if I try and turn the pedals by hand, while I obviously CAN, there is real resistance.

So, the question: is this because of the way electric bikes are made, at least those with rear hub motors? Is YOUR bike similar, or can you easily ride it as a conventional bike, without power?

I don't know anybody with a Wisper locally (or anywhere, apart from my cyber 'friends' here), otherwise I'd go and ride their bike for 100 yards and see what happened.

It's not that I particularly WANT to ride round without electricity, but I'd like to know if it's just my problem, or something that ebike riders have to come to terms with.


Allen.

 

[Alex728]

AFAIK this is normal - A wisper or similar e-bike weighs about 25 kilos (considerably more than a similar push bike) and there is also drag due to the gears in the hub motor.

 

[eddieo]

I really dont get why this causes you such consternation...E bikes with BIG batteries are heavy beasts and not really designed for riding without power, why would you want to anyway, its a horrible experience. So if you loose power when out and about (like I did on holiday recently ) you are basically bu$$ered? and why I carry cab numbers with me......

I am thinking of a kit on a better bike, A it should be far more ridable without power and B I can take the front wheel with me and convert back to a normal bike if something unfortunate happens...at least the holiday wont be ruined

 

[Mike63]

Is YOUR bike similar, or can you easily ride it as a conventional bike, without power?

Hi Allen...I have a Wisper...just same, impossible without power, despite the claim that a "Wisper is as easy to ride without power as with"...just not true.
Perhaps for ayone young and fit who doesn't really need power anyway it may be so but if you're 70... not so fit ...or otherwise incapacited...No way.

.....Mike

 

[allen-uk]

....not really designed for riding without power, why would you want to anyway, its a horrible experience.

Partly, eddie, BECAUSE of experiences like yours! I don't want to ride the bleeder without power, but neither do I want to have to push it home, up hills etc. (Not consternation, particularly, just aiming for perfection and missing).

Alex, Mike: thanks for those - my old bike weighed about 15kg, so it was on the heavy side, although it must be more than just the extra weight: I carried 10kg-ish several times on my rear carrier, and it was hard work, but not impossible, so I think your point about the drag caused by the motor is closer to the mark.

Most interesting to know that Wispers aren't made for pedalling! I suspected as much.


Allen.

 

[CeeGee]

Is YOUR bike similar, or can you easily ride it as a conventional bike, without power

I can ride my Wisper without power as easily as a conventional bike that weighs approx 25kg.
Don't try to race along and, most importantly, use the gears. It is not a very pleasant experience, but then neither would a 25kg conventional bike. Of course you could dump the battery to make it lighter and easier to ride.

Colin

 

[Alex728]

being younger I might have got my sums wrong converting imperial into metric units, but weren't those old style 3 speed Raleigh bikes about the same weight?

 

[allen-uk]

Not only old Rayleigh bikes, but also Boris's loan bikes in London - around 23kg, apparently.

No, it's NOT the weight (not that I've tried taking the battery off), it's definitely hub drag. I know the difference between my old 15kg non-electric bike and this one, and as I said above, I have carried large-ish weights on the normal bike without crippling myself (ho ho).

Now, one for the engineers (aren't we all?) - maybe OldTimer et al.: how about a simple clutch system so that the gears on a Wisper-type set-up just turn the wheel, as normal, until the power gets switched on, when the clutch engages the hub to the gears, setting up the pedelec system?

Not saying you could fettle one up in your shed and hammer it on over the weekend, but it could be something of a breakthrough on future Wisper (or anyone else's) designs, could it not?

Allen.

 

[flecc]

As you rightly say Allen, it is definitely hub drag which comes from the nylon epicyclic gears that are always engaged with the hub shell so always turn when moving.

This is unavoidable with the Suzhou Bafang type motor. Some, including e-bike manufacturers, like to claim their SB hub motor bikes are easier to ride than others, but that's rubbish, that drag is always there and it makes them miserable to pedal without power compared to a normal bike.

Hand spinning a wheel is not comparable since it only produces about 4 to 5 mph typically, and the run down time is not relevant either. You just have to live with it or buy an e-bikes that uses a different motor type.

The Panasonic and Yamaha crank drive units have far less drag, the direct drive hub motors like the Bionx often have far less drag, and the bikes using the roller drive Tongxin Nano motor have almost no drag, but at the cost of somewhat lower reliability.
.

 

[Caph]

OK, this is intriguing me. I thought Wisper had good quality motors in them?

My Galileo is as easy to pedal unpowered as a normal bike with additional weight. By this I mean that pedalling on the flat is hardly any different from a normal bike (a bit longer to get up to speed though), downhill is obviously easier, but pedalling up hill definitely means dropping down a couple of gears from normal. There is _no_ discernible drag from the motor. I can easily maintain 18mph along the flat with no headwind and that's with no motor assistance at all.

I often go out for long rides (30-40 miles) and leave the motor off for long stretches (at the start, not so much at the end!) and it makes little difference to me unless I encounter a long and/or steep hill. The same can't be said of the Alien Ocean Gents Special (V1 not V2) which I also own and which is is a pig to ride without power. I once got caught about 20 miles away from home when the battery died (it was on its way out but I hadn't realised) and it about killed me to ride it back.

 

[flecc]

Thay do Caph, the SB motors are thought to be about the best internally geared motors around for performance. Your Galileo uses the same type of motor but lower powered (180 watt) and probably with a different internal gear ratio and gear widths, so less drag. Those can make quite a difference. Your Alien probable uses the full 250 watt power SB type motor which does certainly drag.

It's not just Wisper at the top end who use these of course, other high price makes like eZee have used them at various times. However Wisper now also use the Dapush motors and eZee have their own motor now, so perhaps things are changing a bit.
.

 

[Mussels]

I found the 905 near impossible to ride unpowered until I reduced the gearing and then it became possible but slow.

 

[NRG]

Interesting, the SB motor on my Peugeot is OK to ride without power, I've no idea why, it's a 250w motor geared for a 26" wheel but mounted in a 700c one, yes, you notice when the power is off but it's nothing like the Alien which is quite a lot more work to pedal along.....

 

[Barnowl]

No problem with the Cytronex but that's no surprise since it's a normal Trek bike with a discreet lightweight Tongxin motor and NIMH battery. I quite often ride the bike unassisted for the extra exercise - sometimes with the battery on board and sometimes without - doesn't make much difference to me. The downside is... can't think of one.

Ahhh yes, if you're doing loads of energy sucking commuting miles every day or not too keen on putting the leg work in, you're probably going to need a well charged, bigger, heavier battery.

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

no drag from nylon gears on 8Fun

As you rightly say Allen, it is definitely hub drag which comes from the nylon epicyclic gears that are always engaged with the hub shell so always turn when moving.

This is unavoidable with the Suzhou Bafang type motor. Some, including e-bike manufacturers, like to claim their SB hub motor bikes are easier to ride than others, but that's rubbish, that drag is always there and it makes them miserable to pedal without power compared to a normal bike.

Hand spinning a wheel is not comparable since it only produces about 4 to 5 mph typically, and the run down time is not relevant either. You just have to live with it or buy an e-bikes that uses a different motor type.

The Panasonic and Yamaha crank drive units have far less drag, the direct drive hub motors like the Bionx often have far less drag, and the bikes using the roller drive Tongxin Nano motor have almost no drag, but at the cost of somewhat lower reliability.
.

Hi Tony,

... and sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you at this point. The drag provided by Suzhou Bafang motors is minimal and the nylon gears are not engaged with hub shell when moving without power. There is an internal freewheel that dis-clutch them when motor is without power. The problem that users might have experienced here is to do with the seals and the bearings fitted in the motor. When I spin my 8FUN motor on my Emate it spins so freely as any other bike hub.

I personally investigated few 8FUN motors and noticed that some of them have indeed very tough fitted bearings and the waterproof seals can also cause a bit of drag and squeaky noise.

For those who experienced the heavily riding Wisper or any other bike with 8FUN motor I would first suggest to look somewhere else where the problem might be:

Firstly. Check your tyres pressure as when riding ebike with power you will never realise that you might be low on that.

Secondly: Adjust your stem to more sporty position. Riding the bike with totally vertical stem set up does not help you to be a more effective when you pedal.

Thirdly: Check your brakes and if you don't actually have a drag on the brake pads that again you may not even notice when you are with power.

Again I can assure you all that the problem isn't with Suzhou Bafang motors. The bikes might indeed spin bit more heavily but that's mainly due to weight of the bikes not the motor fault. I know very well that 8FUN motors certainly deserve to be one of the best on the market in terms of reliability, power and efficiently so please do not put a black cross on that brand. The fact that there are thousands of very happy owners of SB motors speaks for itself. I ride this motor and I love it, I also ride my bike without power and I still think it runs superb smooth.

BTW The SB motor that I speak about is the QSWXH series with disc brake adaptor.

All the best

Andrew
Oxygen Bicycles

 

[Old Timer]

When I look back at my mid teens, I did an evening and morning paper round by bike and then on Friday and Saturday I worked for a Green Grocer and delivered peoples orders on one of the "open all hours bikes" sometimes up to the local council estate (up hill) with maybe 4 peoples orders on board and no gears How the hell did I do it It`s just a distant memory now

 

[Alex728]

I found the 905 near impossible to ride unpowered until I reduced the gearing and then it became possible but slow.

my 2009 model is rideable but slow "out of the box" but I think the chainrings may have been changed from 52T on the 2008 model to 48T on the 2009 (mine says 48T on the chainring)

 

[allen-uk]

Hi Tony,

... and sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you at this point....

For those who experienced the heavily riding Wisper or any other bike with 8FUN motor I would first suggest to look somewhere else where the problem might be:

Firstly. Check your tyres pressure as when riding ebike with power you will never realise that you might be low on that.

Secondly: Adjust your stem to more sporty position. Riding the bike with totally vertical stem set up does not help you to be a more effective when you pedal.

Thirdly: Check your brakes and if you don't actually have a drag on the brake pads that again you may not even notice when you are with power.

...I know very well that 8FUN motors certainly deserve to be one of the best on the market in terms of reliability, power and efficiently so please do not put a black cross on that brand.

Well, I don't think anyone here is criticising the motor, as a motor; it's only when a bike with that motor is used WITHOUT power that we have problems.

And neither do I think that all of us who experience the problem have soft tyres, binding brakes, and I'll ignore the 'high stem' as being irrelevant to the sort of measured, slow riding that many of us here do.

Also, it seems to be Wisper owners who are reporting this problem, not Oxygen riders, as yet.

Allen.

 

[HarryB]

There are some topics that keep coming up on the forum and this is one of them.

While these motors hava a freewheel it isn't and cannot be in the right position to completely disingage the cogs so you get some minimal cogging when you ride without power. This is usually the first thing people notice if they come from an unpowered bike to an electric bike and has very little to do with weight and nothing to do with binding brakes or deflated tyres.

If you want a bike that rides nearly as well unpowered as powered then purchase a panasonic/yamaha equipped bike or go down the Tongxin route with something like the Cytronex. The new 906 Wispers are pretty good but you are still riding through some porridge as you are with the Bionx (even though there is no freewheel).

 

[Straylight]

One thing I've discovered to help with this is adding grease to where the freewheel (the one on the outside that the chain goes round) meets the motor shell. It's a bit fiddly, and involves a fine paint brush, but seemed to make a big difference to the rolling resistance of my rear wheel.

I found that the best results were after cleaning it first by dripping oil behind the freewheel, then feeding a j-cloth in to the gap to wipe off the grime. I then applied a fair amount of lithium grease with Teflon, then spinning the wheel forward, so the freewheel stays still to work the grease into the joint.

I know it may seem illogical, but it really has helped the resistance whilst pedalling as well as freewheeling. The only thing I can think is that the grease works its way inside the motor itself.