Wisper Battery Failure x 2

[Wisper Bikes]

Agree with Mark here that good quality cells help but not always. Very often many problems with li-ion batterries are not cell quality related and there are other parts of the battery which I would say have to be A-class i.e:

- quality of BMS. this can really mess the battery a lot
- quality of assembly, precision in soldering joints and connectors
- quality of fuses and the fuse holders (Ha you would be amazed how many of these are causing chaos in ebike batteries)

Bang on as usual Andrew, the quality and price of a battery is not simply cell related, We too have recently been let down by a fuse case holder, and have spent £1000,s on sorting it out, but that was probably our fault as we tweaked up the power output quite considerably, any way all sorted now and bikes even more powerful!

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Agree with Mark here that good quality cells help but not always. Very often many problems with li-ion batterries are not cell quality related and there are other parts of the battery which I would say have to be A-class i.e:

- quality of BMS. this can really mess the battery a lot
- quality of assembly, precision in soldering joints and connectors
- quality of fuses and the fuse holders (Ha you would be amazed how many of these are causing chaos in ebike batteries)

Bang on as usual Andrew, the quality and price of a battery is not simply cell related, We too have recently been let down by a fuse case holder, and have spent £1000,s on sorting it out, but that was probably our fault as we tweaked up the power output quite considerably, any way all sorted now and bikes even more powerful!

All the best

David

 

[Kudoscycles]

Gentleman...we do have a habit of going off on a tangent on these posts. Andy B initiated this post by asking how he could avoid spending £500 plus on a new battery to continue using his existing e-bike. Yet the discussion seems to have strayed into Sulphide batteries,which whilst no prices stated would appear to be costing some considerable amount more than that figure,not what Andy was trying to achieve.
I am very respectful of those wishing to push the technology forward on these e-bikes but we seem to have lost sight of the fact that these bikes are already too expensive for mainstream usage and if the market is to expand we need to offer products that appeal to the majority. The high end of e-bikes seems already well served but nobody as yet seems to be able to offer the VW of the e-bike world...this is Kudos's aim but I must be honest and say that the number of e-bikes presently sold in the UK is not yet sufficient to achieve bulk production and bulk distribution with the resultant volume savings.
What are we offering for the customer who wants to pay less than £1000 for his bike and replacement battery costs of less than £250? Until we achieve a reliable,popular and cheap maintenance e-bike at those figures, this industry will always be considered niche by the majority,most of my friends are horrified when I tell them that replacement batteries can cost more than £500.
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[carpetbagger]

The Powabyke Euro meets that criteria....In fact under £650 for the bike and £200 for the official battery...

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

Bang on as usual Andrew, the quality and price of a battery is not simply cell related,

sorry for banging on as usual David, all i say it's best on the personal experience and not related to anyone else. anyway better get off here, have a good evening

 

[Wisper Bikes]

sorry for banging on as usual David, all i say it's best on the personal experience and not related to anyone else. anyway better get off here, have a good evening

No no no no, I meant you were "bang on" or "on the money" or perfectly correct, I didn't mean to say you were banging on!! I do that!!!!

All the best buddy!

David

 

[karl101]

We will not be using this new Tech to increase range on our 2013/14 bikes, we will simply be reducing the size and weight of the battery whilst retaining a 500Wh capacity, we may even reduct to 36V 10A or a 360Wh capacity, this way we believe we can get our bike weight down to under 16kg.

Would these new batteries be available to those of use with the older Wisper bikes, as the batteries in use now start needing to be replaced?

Also, have you seen this battery technology developed by Leeds University? Polymer gel batteries - University of Leeds

Karl.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

The thread seems to be fine to me David, we were all simply explaining why some batteries cost £150 and others cost £650, and that a £500 investment in a decent battery can be less expensive in the long run than paying £250 for a cheaper offering.

Your friends would be amazed that a new 2.5kWh sulphur battery could cost as much as £2,000!! But what a battery!!!

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Would these new batteries be available to those of use with the older Wisper bikes, as the batteries in use now start needing to be replaced?

Also, have you seen this battery technology developed by Leeds University? Polymer gel batteries - University of Leeds

Karl.

Hi Karl, thanks for that, no I hadn't come across this article before.

Professor Ward believes the new material could replace the liquid electrolytes currently used in rechargeable lithium cells. Furthermore, the gel can be made into a thin, flexible film via a fully automated process that is fast, efficient and low cost.

We have been using Lithium Polymer batteries for quite some time now where the polymer replaces the liquid electrolytes as they are safer etc. as per the above, it will be interesting to see how Professor Ward's batteries differ to standard li po.

The batteries will be transferable to the current Wisper batteries however our older batteries with the kettle lead will not be compatible.

All the best

David

 

[Kudoscycles]

David(wisper)....I just don't see how a £2000 sulphur battery helps Andy B replace his £500 battery...please understand if Wisper wishes to keep pushing the technology boundaries,irrespective of cost,I have no problem with that it must be exciting being at the cutting edge of e-bike development.
But my point is that this development does nothing to satisfy the customer who wishes an economical means of keeping his e-bike on the road....I wonder how many owners when faced with such a replacement bill say'to hell with it,I am not paying that!' and leave the bike in the shed to die. That customer is lost to the e-bike world forever.
Price does not necessarily reveal quality when it comes to quality...I have some bikes still under test that had lithium Polymer batteries,these bikes are so fussy to look after than the LifePo4 batteries,the LifePo4 cost half the price of the Lithium Polymer batteries but are so much easier to maintain....low self discharge,temperature tolerant,consistent capacity...these LifePo4's look after themselves.
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[Kudoscycles]

David(Wisper)....first of all lets keep this friendly.
OK please can you give me some maths as to how a £500 battery with a life of 2 years can be more economical than a LifePo4 battery costing £210 with a life span of 5 years!!!
My friends would think that someone spending £2000 on an e-bike battery should be commited....something about nice men in white coats.
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[Cyclezee]

I've done over 3000 miles on my old (2008) ezee battery (20 miles per day commuting and the rest) and it's just starting to dip a bit in the cold weather but I'm happy with the service I've had from it - much cheaper then using my 3.0L V6 petrol car!

Hi Peter,

Yeah, an eZee battery for less than the cost of couple of tyres for your V6 Clio Sport, that does put the price e-bikes into perspective

Regards,

 

[piotrmacheta]

And a tank of petrol is over £80 for my 250 miles of traffic jam pleasure. 5 tank-fulls of fuel for a battery that lasts 2+ years begins to look very reasonable!
As for cheap batteries, I bought some LiPo's from ebay (go-market) and they work out about £100 for 5.7 Ahr of 48V pack. That's as cheap as it gets.

 

[Scottyf]

I'm roughy those lipo from go Market you can actually buy 44v 10ah for £120 delivered. Got mine today.

 

[eddieo]

Some of us don't want a large capacity square box of a battery however long it lasts or how little it costs.

David/Wisper comment re £2000 massive capacity battery is hardly for a bike is it? Surely it was purely an example, and more suitable for cars. David/Wisper had already said earlier that they are working on lighter/smaller battery's with better range, in a 15/16 kg bike. I will be willing to pay for the pleasure of riding something like this, but must say I want a new Bosch system bike as well while I'm waiting.....

 

[AndyB]

Wow - lilvely thread with lot's of suggestions, but thanks Dave from Kudos for bringing it back to the heart of the matter. Is it possible to continue e-biking without forking out £500, or do I give up? From what you've all said it seems the options are:
A LifePo4 as recommended by Kudos, £210.
Build a DIY LiPo as proposed by Jerry, and Scottyf (perhaps <£200)
Wait for a fantastic new battery costing £2000.

Buying non standard would need some effort to modify though, and DIY may involve gutting my current case, and all options would also need a new charger, I was quoted £90 for a Wisper one so I guess they are similar. So true cost could still be high....

 

[Scottyf]

Problem with lifepo4 at the moment is it's size compared to your original battery. You'd never get the same capacity in the same space.
If wisper don't send a replacement then in your shoes I'd buy from china direct Bms battery and go about changing the connections on the bike.

 

[jerrysimon]

Build a DIY LiPo as proposed by Jerry, and Scottyf (perhaps <£200)

Just to clarify I use a DIY LiFeP04 battery not Lithium Polymer.

Regards

Jerry

 

[z0mb13e]

Wow - lilvely thread with lot's of suggestions, but thanks Dave from Kudos for bringing it back to the heart of the matter. Is it possible to continue e-biking without forking out £500, or do I give up? From what you've all said it seems the options are:
A LifePo4 as recommended by Kudos, £210.
Build a DIY LiPo as proposed by Jerry, and Scottyf (perhaps <£200)
Wait for a fantastic new battery costing £2000.

Buying non standard would need some effort to modify though, and DIY may involve gutting my current case, and all options would also need a new charger, I was quoted £90 for a Wisper one so I guess they are similar. So true cost could still be high....

Hi AndyB,

I'm assuming that you have a 36v14Ah LiFePo4 if you are looking at £500 for replacement from Wisper? If so the case is pretty big and you should be able to get a DIY LiFePo4 in there fairly easily if you opt for a smaller capacity. Some members on the forum have gone this route and ordered custom sized packs from China to suit (I believe I'm right in saying that some have also had problems with the supplied battery not being made to the dimensions specified).

BMSBattery and Ping have a decent off the shelf selection and a reasonable prices. If you go that route watch out for import duty - it can be a nasty surprise if you get stung for it. It can also take a while to get here.

The Kudos batteries are a good price when compared with other options, particularly as they are on hand to help and not on the other side of the planet should things go wrong. Though how they feel about people using their batteries for DIY retro fits on other manufacturers bikes I don't know.

If you don't mind a rack mounted battery then the BMSBattery with rack mount carrier is a good option and includes a charger. It is also likely the easiest or least messy DIY retro fit. Would probably work out at around £210 before shipping and if you don't get stung for import duty.

 

[Scatty]

2 grand for a battery hahahahahaha, 500 + is ridiclous but 2 grand hahahaha, Thanks for the laugh David