Better not mention the battery costs for the Nissan Leaf then!2 grand for a battery hahahahahaha, 500 + is ridiclous but 2 grand hahahaha, Thanks for the laugh David
Wisper Battery Failure x 2
- Thread starter AndyB
- Start date
Zomb13e....I am determined to bring down the cost of these e-bikes both the original cost and replacement cost of batteries/spares. For I think it is these high costs that is restricting the market for electric bikes.
I already sell a number of batteries to support other suppliers bikes-our Sport bike battery is a direct fitment on Sunlova bikes. I would give all assistance to retro fit our batteries on other bikes but respect that such work may be difficult and possibly not worth the effort-our chargers are only £27.00 plus vat.
We are trying to use the same battery on as many bikes as possible but with different suppliers that is difficult-on 36 v bikes we currently have 3 batteries-1. fitted to King,Tourer,City,Liberty 2. Duke,Duchess 3. Sport(pod type)-all batteries are 10Ah. We have 2 new bikes under build-a sporty ladies/unisex bike called Eco-that will use battery No1 and another called Safari-that will use battery No2. By standardising as much as possible we achieve volumes of scale to keep prices competitive. There is no reason at this moment to increase battery prices.
The only problem about selling these batteries to other users is that our spares stocks are becoming depleted,the intention of these stocks was to support our own product but we have organised 50 off additional batteries,each type in our next container shipments.
The first question when buying an e-bike must surely be 'how much is a replacement battery?'-if the selesman does not answer that question honestly and directly,go elsewhere-there is plenty of choice in this current market.
Dave
KudosCycles
I already sell a number of batteries to support other suppliers bikes-our Sport bike battery is a direct fitment on Sunlova bikes. I would give all assistance to retro fit our batteries on other bikes but respect that such work may be difficult and possibly not worth the effort-our chargers are only £27.00 plus vat.
We are trying to use the same battery on as many bikes as possible but with different suppliers that is difficult-on 36 v bikes we currently have 3 batteries-1. fitted to King,Tourer,City,Liberty 2. Duke,Duchess 3. Sport(pod type)-all batteries are 10Ah. We have 2 new bikes under build-a sporty ladies/unisex bike called Eco-that will use battery No1 and another called Safari-that will use battery No2. By standardising as much as possible we achieve volumes of scale to keep prices competitive. There is no reason at this moment to increase battery prices.
The only problem about selling these batteries to other users is that our spares stocks are becoming depleted,the intention of these stocks was to support our own product but we have organised 50 off additional batteries,each type in our next container shipments.
The first question when buying an e-bike must surely be 'how much is a replacement battery?'-if the selesman does not answer that question honestly and directly,go elsewhere-there is plenty of choice in this current market.
Dave
KudosCycles
I applaud and welcome your efforts. Your bikes and batteries are keenly priced.
Standardisation is a laudable goal and makes sense.
I asked the very question "how much do batteries cost" when looking at ebikes a few years back and I have to say that even a couple of years ago £400 (as it was then) for a new battery wasn't bad when taken in context of fuel costs over two years. But given wage stagnation and the real cost of living now, £500 for a new battery is way too much of a stretch for me.
Edit: Hence why I am now sticking with the original Wisper battery until it dies.
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The range of lithium battery prices, from circa £200 to over £1000 (BionX 10Ah) can look puzzling, but much depends on the marketing model, the pattern of which is not yet settled for this immature industry.
It's entirely legitimate for a a supplier of capital items to get an ongoing income stream from consumables and spares, the motor industry we've long accepted as doing just that. Try buying the parts to assemble a £10,000 car and you'll find it costs you over £40,000 for the most favourable example, many much more, that sort of mark-up making that on most e-bike batteries seem reasonable indeed.
It is after all often extremely difficult to survive on just the sale of capital goods, brought home currently by the sale of the entire Comet electrical chain of stores complete with vast stocks for just £2. Even at that paltry sum, the seller had to give the buyer a "dowry" of £50 millions to get them to hand over the £2 and take on the company, since no-one even wanted to try. (Those looting rioters languishing in jail now must be gutted, just £2 and they could have had all the electricals they wanted plus a big cash share-out.)
The motor trade I've mentioned above are very dependent on the profits from servicing, spares, ancillary sales, MOTs etc for survival, new car sales being too erratic to depend on entirely. By the same token, ongoing income streams are needed for e-bike suppliers. The small market and scattered owner locations mean that servicing income is rarely possible, spares are rarely needed and few ancillary sales are possible. Some have tried, 50cycles notably have offered winter servicing with collection and pickup and offer a range of ancillaries and helmets, but the totals of those cannot alone sustain a major supplier year round in bad times.
As the only post capital sale dedicated item, batteries are about all there is to provide a reasonable ongoing income stream. Without that we could see more like Ultra Motor filing for bankruptcy, and that would make us all the losers.
It's entirely legitimate for a a supplier of capital items to get an ongoing income stream from consumables and spares, the motor industry we've long accepted as doing just that. Try buying the parts to assemble a £10,000 car and you'll find it costs you over £40,000 for the most favourable example, many much more, that sort of mark-up making that on most e-bike batteries seem reasonable indeed.
It is after all often extremely difficult to survive on just the sale of capital goods, brought home currently by the sale of the entire Comet electrical chain of stores complete with vast stocks for just £2. Even at that paltry sum, the seller had to give the buyer a "dowry" of £50 millions to get them to hand over the £2 and take on the company, since no-one even wanted to try. (Those looting rioters languishing in jail now must be gutted, just £2 and they could have had all the electricals they wanted plus a big cash share-out.)
The motor trade I've mentioned above are very dependent on the profits from servicing, spares, ancillary sales, MOTs etc for survival, new car sales being too erratic to depend on entirely. By the same token, ongoing income streams are needed for e-bike suppliers. The small market and scattered owner locations mean that servicing income is rarely possible, spares are rarely needed and few ancillary sales are possible. Some have tried, 50cycles notably have offered winter servicing with collection and pickup and offer a range of ancillaries and helmets, but the totals of those cannot alone sustain a major supplier year round in bad times.
As the only post capital sale dedicated item, batteries are about all there is to provide a reasonable ongoing income stream. Without that we could see more like Ultra Motor filing for bankruptcy, and that would make us all the losers.
No problems Scatty! I love a good laugh too!I dont expect anyone to want a battery that will move the bike for 200 to 300 miles on a single charge. I am simply reporting that this tech is going to be available soon.
I do think these batteries will be sold on electric bikes in the future but will be aimed at the 30mph variety already seen in Germany which of course demand much more power to availability.
We are using the technology to make batteries on our 2013/14 range smaller, lighter and more discreet.
I personally enjoy using the latest tech and pushing boundaries, so please excuse my enthusiasm! Our most popular bikes will no doubt continue to be the 905se etc. with our smaller 407Wh or the standard 592Wh Lithium batteries.
All the best
David
Even more reason then to keep replacement battery costs down. High cost will either deter customers purchasing in the first place or stop them buying from the original manufacturer when replacement is due. They will either go to an alternative or simply leave the bike in the shed to rust away.
Clearly a balance needs to be struck but I cant help feeling the current price os some manufacturers batteries are simply too high especially given the current pressure on household incomes...
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You miss the point david, MAKE them cheaper!. Push all the boundaries you want but make them affordable for the average person. Keep trying Your best
I dont expect anyone to want a battery that will move the bike for 200 to 300 miles on a single charge. I am simply reporting that this tech is going to be available soon.
I do think these batteries will be sold on electric bikes in the future but will be aimed at the 30mph variety already seen in Germany which of course demand much more power to availability.
We are using the technology to make batteries on our 2013/14 range smaller, lighter and more discreet.
I personally enjoy using the latest tech and pushing boundaries, so please excuse my enthusiasm! Our most popular bikes will no doubt continue to be the 905se etc. with our smaller 407Wh or the standard 592Wh Lithium batteries.
All the best
David
Mine cost me £7k to build and only last week I was offered £9k for it :-D Oh, and it's environmentally freindly as it uses reclaimed parts
http://web.bethere.co.uk/amigafan2003/
Flecc....your analogy with car parts is so relevant...we all know that if we buy a replacement part from a main dealer it can cost many times more than the same part from a motor factor despite often that part coming from the same Asian factory. The problem with the e-bike industry is that the volumes are so low and the consumables so fragmented that pattern parts would be difficult to produce....the manufacturer (should I say importer) knows that he has a captive audience-if you don't go back to him you have no replacement parts. Our parent company Rally Design succeeded in breaking the stranglehold that the big OEM's had on performance auto parts by buying in big quantities from the factory and selling direct to the customer,only one company in the food chain,we are now the largest in the world in our sector.
I am quite prepared to look at making pattern batteries in Lifepo4 format for any e-bike provided that I can be convinced that there is sufficient volume to justify the tooling costs,I suspect the costings would not be dissimilar to the current Kudos range-but I must be sure that I am not commited to a number of expensive one-offs,my battery manufacturer is one of the best Asian suppliers and seems hungry for the work. Await your suggestions?
Dave
KudosCycles
I am quite prepared to look at making pattern batteries in Lifepo4 format for any e-bike provided that I can be convinced that there is sufficient volume to justify the tooling costs,I suspect the costings would not be dissimilar to the current Kudos range-but I must be sure that I am not commited to a number of expensive one-offs,my battery manufacturer is one of the best Asian suppliers and seems hungry for the work. Await your suggestions?
Dave
KudosCycles
This rather puts me on the spot since I try to maintain neutrality in all respects and nominating any for a loss of business somewhat conflicts.
There is one obvious example where the same battery mounting and case has uniquely been used on all models from the very first one around 8 years ago. Since I regard that as very highly commendable, I'd hate to damage their business, particularly as they are currently one of the lowest selling. Perhaps that last factor might put you off though, indicating a small and declining prospect.
The trouble with most makes is the many changes that their battery mountings, positions, cases and sizes have had over time.
Hi Scatty, we can of course supply cheap 360Wh batteries as can everyone else, maybe you are correct and we should give this some consideration. There are so many Asian suppliers desperate to sell them that we get several offers every day of the week. These batteries are the standard now for China and are manufactured by the hundred thousand hence the low price, I don't think there is anything wrong with them they are simply considerably cheaper than the type of battery we currently sell.
The more I consider this the more I feel it may be worth bringing out a super eco LiFePo4 for those who would like such a battery, we could easily fit them into our cases. Thanks Scatty for your patience, you have certainly given me cause to think!
All the best
David
David....the capitalist system is working well...I heartily support your idea of producing an inexpensive LifePo4 battery to fit the Wisper range....I wonder if others will follow suit....this is the way forward for the e-bike industry-as volumes increase we should see a drop in prices and interest more customers into the marketplace. The recent demise of UltraMotor should send out warnings to those e-bike suppliers who rely on big margins based on small volumes,in the UK this business model will not survive-we now must be seen to offer value for money based on volume.
Dave
KudosCycles
Dave
KudosCycles
Emm....are you sure Dave? I think you'll find that, at the present time, there's quite a few at the BoE and the European Central Bank might disagree. Perhaps, of course, in your sphere of activity greed may still be king but for those less fortunate, we need good, old-fashioned socialism.
Indalo
Thanks Dave, but I think you misunderstand our business model. I wish we did work on big margins!
The few batteries Wisper or the entire UK market will purchase in the next few years will not effect the price at all, these cheap batteries are being driven by the Chinese home market where lead acid batteries are gradually being outlawed.
I am simply considering whether selling a cheap battery would be sensible, our margins would remain the same.
I was privy to UM's profit margins, believe me, they were so tight that they were not making enough profit to survive, they were selling more than a thousand units a year with a turnover of £1.8 million. Flecc as always is absolutely correct, we all need to make enough money to service our customers well or risk following in the footsteps of UM.
No one in the UK is making money selling electric bikes (as far as I understand) and those like UM who cut margins to the point that their businesses are making a net loss will simply not survive. I predict there will be many more electric bike businesses going bust over the next twelve months leaving their customers struggling to buy spares to maintain their bikes and losing any warranty that was remaining. This in turn will render their investment worthless.
I can assue you that Wisper will not be one of these companies.
All the best
David
The few batteries Wisper or the entire UK market will purchase in the next few years will not effect the price at all, these cheap batteries are being driven by the Chinese home market where lead acid batteries are gradually being outlawed.
I am simply considering whether selling a cheap battery would be sensible, our margins would remain the same.
I was privy to UM's profit margins, believe me, they were so tight that they were not making enough profit to survive, they were selling more than a thousand units a year with a turnover of £1.8 million. Flecc as always is absolutely correct, we all need to make enough money to service our customers well or risk following in the footsteps of UM.
No one in the UK is making money selling electric bikes (as far as I understand) and those like UM who cut margins to the point that their businesses are making a net loss will simply not survive. I predict there will be many more electric bike businesses going bust over the next twelve months leaving their customers struggling to buy spares to maintain their bikes and losing any warranty that was remaining. This in turn will render their investment worthless.
I can assue you that Wisper will not be one of these companies.
All the best
David
I think diversification is the missing word in this tantalising little teaser! Are you thinking about floating the company any time soon David as I'd like a few shares?
Jack Cohen started small and very quickly became Britain's biggest. I'm sure you're driven in exactly the same way.
Indalo
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I've made exactly the same prediction. This is not the time for cutting margins to the bone, that only works in bulk sales markets and e-bikes certainly aren't one of those.
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