Wisper Alpino 706 or Kalkhoff Agattu

[Graeme]

Firstly, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this forum, as a newbie it's very helpful to snoop around and glean info.

I have not made up my mind yet on which bike to get, so this is just part of the process, I am still considering others but for this thread I'd appreciate your input just on these two as head to head options.

I have no idea how to set up a bike, I can just about fill the round black things with air...that's as far as it goes...

My proposed commute would be about 20 miles, some hills not too steep though.
However, I want to do some leisure cycling (some off road) which would be much further and include, potentially, some steep hills.

Against all my macho instincts, (at the mo) I've decided go for a girls... I mean, a Step-Through
Reasons being, I'd like to encourage my wife to cycle.
And, I presume its less appealing to thieves, as women don't steal stuff...apparently.
And I'm getting old at 51!
I am 6ft 1 my wife is 5ft 8 -Which size frame would us both suit best?
Both of us are not as fit as we should be, put it like that!

Gears
What I know about these is that they have different names!
That's it!
So what's the difference in function etc?

Throttle No Throttle?
There are some hills around Monifieth/Dundee.
How important is it to have a throttle?

Battery
18ah v 16ah (New Alpino)
Is the technology the same?
If not, Does it matter that much?

Wheel Size
New Alpino 706 - 28 only?
Agattu Wheel size?
Again what are the advantages, if any in wheel size?
26 would be better for off road I presume.

AND please feel free to contrast and highlight any other issues that may be helpful.

I am fortunate enough to have a Wisper dealer in Dundee, not so for the Kalkhoff...
Most people on the forum highly recommend a test run on as many different bikes as possible, but as many of us know this is not always practical.
So any input would be greatly received.

Many thanks
Graeme

706Alpino

Kalkhoff Agattu 8-speed Electric Bike

 

[Tim]

Hi Graeme, first of all it sounds like the 49cm frame would be a good compromise for both you and your wife to ride comfortably, but you would also be at home on a 45cm frame bike and this has the advantage of coming with 26-inch wheels. There's a wide range of saddle heights you can use and the saddle is held securely in place with a collar and bolt which can be adjusted with the supplied Allen key set.

I wouldn't worry about the step thru frame - it makes it easier to hop on and off and we sell equal numbers of step thru bikes to men and women, always have done!

The Kalkhoff Agattu comes with a Shimano Nexus gear hub, with 3- and 8-speed options. The 8-speed gives you a wider gear range to play with, which would be useful in hilly country but 3-speed gears should still serve you well for dashing about town.

The Agattu isn't fitted with a throttle and control of the bike's power is entirely automatic - the Panasonic system detects how hard you're pedalling an adjusts power accordingly. It's a remarkably smooth, quiet and efficient system that is well able to tackle hills and headwinds. It's also supremely reliable. Centre-motor set ups like that found on the Agattu have now become the most popular way to power an electric bike with many manufacturers offering variants on the technology. The more simple hub motor arrangement appears to be falling out of favour in the European electric bicycle market at least, thought it still seems to be holding out well in the US and Asian markets. If you want years of trouble-free, natural yet surprisingly powerful cycling, a Kalkhoff Agattu is the way to go.

We now offer extensions to the basic 2-year warranty all the way up to five years, including a collect and return service, so you can own a Kalkhoff and be confident of all the support you need in the years to come, wherever you are in the UK.

 

[NRG]

Hi Graeme,

Before you start worrying about gears and wheel sizes you should really try both bikes because a hub driven bike is very very different to ride compared to a crank drive like the Panasonic. The Panasonic demands the rider input effort and even at the new high 2:1 assist levels the system demands considerable, for some, effort from the rider to be able to climb hills. The benefit is obviously very good climbing ability with the system driving directly through the gears.

A hub driven bike will also climb hills well but only up to a point as the motor does not benefit from using the gears, however, it does let the rider relax a bit more and can supply a greater percentage of the power needed to climb hills...those hills though will probably not be as steep.

The Panasonic system doesn't really need a throttle as power is available as soon as the pedals turn but if you have a disability then the lack of a throttle can be either a hindrance or a complete road block to its use. I use a throttle on my hub bikes only to get me going as the pedelec system takes a couple of crank revolutions or so to get the motor started and this can be a real benefit at junctions etc.

 

[kitchenman]

The Panasonic system doesn't really need a throttle as power is available as soon as the pedals turn but if you have a disability then the lack of a throttle can be either a hindrance or a complete road block to its use. I use a throttle on my hub bikes only to get me going as the pedelec system takes a couple of crank revolutions or so to get the motor started and this can be a real benefit at junctions etc.

I'm thinking of a throttle for my wife's Spirit recumbent. Do you have any advice NRG (sorry to butt in!) ..Twist or Thumb? Do you have a url for a supplier? - thanks ...

 

[Mussels]

To decide on specs is difficult, they are both pretty reliable and low maintenance, they both have a good range on the battery, the Nexus and Alfine 8 speed hubs are very similar, they are both well supported (although a local dealer will be useful for the 706).
The ride experience will be different, without modifications the 706 will probably be the quicker bike but the Agattu will be the better hill climber on steep hills. The 706 has a throttle and can be ridden with minimal pedal effort if required, I find I very rarely use the throttle so it's not important to everyone.

 

[NRG]

I'm thinking of a throttle for my wife's Spirit recumbent. Do you have any advice NRG (sorry to butt in!) ..Twist or Thumb? Do you have a url for a supplier? - thanks ...

I prefer twist if using it a lot but I find I now use the pedelec mode 90% of the time so a thumb is OK to help you get off the line...

You can buy from E-Crazyman on Ebay, all my transactions so far with him have been good and he seems to ship from a Heathrow address so no waiting for shipment from China...if he is not listing what you want just send him a message via Ebay...

e-crazyman | eBay UK

 

[andyh2]

Graeme,

Definitely try both as suggested above. Your local Wisper dealer will sort you out for the 706. You won't get a demo of the current increased power Agattu in Scotland (I've just tried and none up here yet), but there may be someone with an up to 2010 model. I've not been able to find a similar Raleigh Dover up here yet either.

I had an Agattu and am considering getting another. I wanted the power available at higher cadence and didn't realise there is a way to achieve that so sold it on.

I recently tried an Alpino 706 (thank you very much Dave) it was a smaller frame size with 26" wheels. Really nicely put together I'd say equal build quality to the Agattu. Nice solid ride quality without being ponderous. Good to have the option of using the throttle when you want to. A bit noisier than the Agattu. Good on hills when you are at a speed which suits the motor.

The Agattu is definitely better on steeper hills and hill starts.

I was thinking of getting the daahub kit for my non e-bike, but since one of my uses will be pulling a Pashley U+2 (2 kid trailer bike) I think the Agattu will be better suited to winching up steep hills and setting off with the extra weight. If I could just try one with the 11t motor sprocket!

You've certainly narrowed your choice to 2 excellent examples of their respective breeds. Having come this far you owe it to yourself to try both.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi Graeme,

I too could make a sales pitch to you, however I would simply ask you to try both bikes.

Wisper Dundee in Dundonald Street have sold many Alpino's so you would be in good company. They are locally available to look after your free safety check and servicing for years to come. We also have dealers in Aviemore, Nairn, Falkirk and Glasgow so you are never far away from a service center.

As has been indicated, you have made two excellent choices, amongst the best hub drive and gear dive out there. However the two systems are very different and need to be road tested, some like the gear drive many others prefer hub and throttle. It is simply a matter of taste.

If I can be of any assistance please drop me a line dmiall@me.com

Best regards

David

 

[lemmy]

as the pedelec system takes a couple of crank revolutions or so to get the motor started and this can be a real benefit at junctions etc.

That is simply not true. If you sit at light with the power on, you can feel the motor trying to pull if you put any weight on the pedals. The acceleration is such that I put my Tasman in 3rd gear of the eight and step off as soon as the lights change, I can out-accelerate any car for the first 4 to 5 metres, which gets you safely across the junction before they can shunt you in to the kerb

 

[NRG]

That is simply not true. If you sit at light with the power on, you can feel the motor trying to pull if you put any weight on the pedals. The acceleration is such that I put my Tasman in 3rd gear of the eight and step off as soon as the lights change, I can out-accelerate any car for the first 4 to 5 metres, which gets you safely across the junction before they can shunt you in to the kerb

Hi Lemmy, unfortunately it is true, read my post carefully

I use a throttle on my hub bikes only to get me going as the pedelec system takes a couple of crank revolutions or so to get the motor started and this can be a real benefit at junctions etc.

 

[flecc]

The acceleration is such that I put my Tasman in 3rd gear of the eight and step off as soon as the lights change, I can out-accelerate any car for the first 4 to 5 metres, which gets you safely across the junction before they can shunt you in to the kerb

The Panasonic system is unique in this respect, I could even momentarily wheelie my Lafree off the mark, and no hub motor I've tried can match it off the mark.

 

[indalo]

The Panasonic system is unique in this respect, I could even momentarily wheelie my Lafree off the mark, and no hub motor I've tried can match it off the mark.

Yes flecc, if I use 3rd gear to get off the mark with my Gazelle, it wants to do a wheelie. Consequently, I have taken to starting off in 4th gear on level ground and usually in low power mode. Even though mine is way short of the latest Panasonic-powered machines in terms of grunt, that initial burst, particularly in high power mode is quite exhilarating.

Sitting with one foot on a raised pedal ready to push off requires a brake held on solidly as the motor is so eager to go....no delay whatsoever.

Regards,
Indalo

 

[indalo]

The Panasonic system is unique in this respect, I could even momentarily wheelie my Lafree off the mark, and no hub motor I've tried can match it off the mark.

Yes flecc, if I use 3rd gear to get off the mark with my Gazelle, it wants to do a wheelie. Consequently, I have taken to starting off in 4th gear on level ground and usually in low power mode. Even though mine is way short of the latest Panasonic-powered machines in terms of grunt, that initial burst, particularly in high power mode is quite exhilarating.

Sitting with one foot on a raised pedal ready to push off requires a brake held on solidly as the motor is so eager to go....no delay whatsoever.

Regards,
Indalo

 

[Tim]

The Panasonic system is unique in this respect, I could even momentarily wheelie my Lafree off the mark, and no hub motor I've tried can match it off the mark.

We haven't done a side-by-side test against a Panasonic drive yet but we found the Kalkhoff Image B27 with the 48V HT BionX set up exceedingly fast off the blocks in the highest power mode. Maybe it was just the novelty of how it works. It'll be interesting to confirm one way or the other.

 

[flecc]

I can imagine that HT with 48 volts would indeed accelerate rapidly Tim. Only snag with BionX mode 4 is you need to get out of it quickly afterwards for it really burns the juice if left in that.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I thought most bikes now had a soft start program that brings in the power over a second or so to avoid wheelies? We have had to put them into our controllers for the three highest power settings.

All the best

David

 

[10mph]

I thought most bikes now had a soft start program that brings in the power over a second or so to avoid wheelies? We have had to put them into our controllers for the three highest power settings.
David

I think I can confirm this for the 2011 Panasonic system on my Agattu. I went out this morning at 5.30 and did this experiment:
I put the control on max assist and with brakes on I stood on a pedal in the 9 o'clock position. I was in the middle gear of 3. There were was no noise or detectable reaction from the motor. I then released the brakes. The bike power came on after a fraction of a turn of the pedals - may be about half a turn - less than a second anyway.

 

[andyh2]

Just to clarify, the 706 does require a couple of revolutions for the motor to get going in pedelec mode. This delay can be overidden using the throttle.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Thanks for the clarification Andy, the wheel spin was only a problem when the throttle was being used during start up. Under pedelec only mode the motor comes in now before one revolution.

All the best

David

 

[paulmj21]

Graeme, look what you've started...
I suggest we take the Harry Hill approach - Wisper or Kalkhoff, which is better?
There's only one to find out...

Fiiiiight!!