Wisper 905/Kalkhoff

torrent99

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 14, 2008
395
36
Highgate, London
Ok wisper back on :) Unfortunately no one near me does these bikes so i will have to buy on spec. If the 2009 model wisper has totally independent throttle control and you can scoot along without peddling you could get away with a compromised frame. So can anyone confirm if the 2009 model is still capable of doing this.

Will also look at the e-motion bikes but cannot find the uk outlet?

Thanks for all the replies
I believe the 2009 edition still requires you to pedal :( but David did say that a simple mod was possible to get it back to throttle control :).
 

rog_london

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2009
764
2
Harrow, Middlesex
I believe the 2009 edition still requires you to pedal :( but David did say that a simple mod was possible to get it back to throttle control :).
AFAIK the throttle does still work without pedalling on the 2009 models as the UK law still does not require you to pedal.....

My 2008 model would not work without pedalling but that was 'accidental' and simply meant parting a single connector near the controller to restore full function. For warranty reasons David or one of his guys should advise you on this if it becomes necessary - you shouldn't believe anything more specific I may be tempted to tell you, so I won't!

It's likely you won't need to do anything though.

Rog.
 

Dynamic Position

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 28, 2009
307
2
Appearance and minimum weights don't count in motorcycle and moped classes, looking like a bike being no excuse. If an e-bike exceeds any of the regulation limits it's a motor vehicle in law.

To illustrate how strict the law is in this respect, there is a low powered moped class with power up to 1000 watts permitted, but still limited to 15 mph. These are classed as motor vehicles, not bicycles, even if bicycle based, and they are subject to type approval.
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I agree that it is a motor vehicle, but type approval must be difficult for e-bikes that are s-class designed e-bicycles. For the Kalkhoff s-class the solution would be software based. Modified e-bikes would also require to be mechanically tested to see that they still meet all the relevant standards requirements.
I would doubt that s-class e-bikes could be type approved as anything else other than an e-bicycle because unlike an e-motorbike they would not get approval for use on UK motorways?
UK legislation needs to be updated so that it can keep abreast of developments.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
I agree that it is a motor vehicle, but type approval must be difficult for e-bikes that are s-class designed e-bicycles. For the Kalkhoff s-class the solution would be software based. Modified e-bikes would also require to be mechanically tested to see that they still meet all the relevant standards requirements.
I would doubt that s-class e-bikes could be type approved as anything else other than an e-bicycle because unlike an e-motorbike they would not get approval for use on UK motorways?
UK legislation needs to be updated so that it can keep abreast of developments.
Your final comment is true, but it's unlikely to ever keep pace since it tends to run years in arrears even in important issues.

The motorway point isn't true though, since we already have that low powered moped class that I mentioned. Those are motor vehicles in law, and therefore permitted on motorways, despite being limited to 15 mph! I know that's mad, but in practice no-one would take one onto a motorway anyway so it's unlikely to be a problem.

Single vehicle type approval permits all manner of oddities of course, and an S class e-bike shouldn't have difficulty in getting approval as a moped.

Type approval thread
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rog_london

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2009
764
2
Harrow, Middlesex
The motorway point isn't true though, since we already have that low powered moped class that I mentioned. Those are motor vehicles in law, and therefore permitted on motorways, despite being limited to 15 mph! I know that's mad, but in practice no-one would take one onto a motorway anyway so it's unlikely to be a problem.
I know 'motorcycles under 50cc' are prohibited from motorways. Many people THINK that mopeds are also prohibited - but take a look at Motorways (253-273) : Directgov - Travel and transport

.....and you'll see Flecc is quite right!

How you'd fare with a low powered petrol moped I wouldn't like to guess - I suspect the motorway patrol would be none too pleased with you!

I guess an electric moped is highly unlikely - if it were limited to 15mph then it would need to exceed the 'assisted bicycle' requirements in at least one respect in order to be registered as a motor vehicle - otherwise it would be banned because bicycles are banned. Surely no-one would be so twisted as to attempt to build one - would they?

Rog.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
I guess an electric moped is highly unlikely - if it were limited to 15mph then it would need to exceed the 'assisted bicycle' requirements in at least one respect in order to be registered as a motor vehicle - otherwise it would be banned because bicycles are banned. Surely no-one would be so twisted as to attempt to build one - would they?

Rog.
The Low Powered Moped class exists in law, so our legislators seem to think someone might want to. Here's the official description:

Low power moped (A moped with pedals, with an auxiliary propulsion not exceeding 1kw, and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25km/h [16mph])

The 1 kW isn't necessarily electric power of course, petrol vehicles are also kW rated, so it could be a 16 mph limited 1.3 bhp petrol moped. Similar to these used to exist, the 98cc autocycles made by Excelsior and others, so the legislators probably modelled the class on those. Imagine this on the motorway!

 
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overlander

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 22, 2009
532
42
Spoke to 50 cycles today and they confirmed that the pr connect S is not restricted.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
Spoke to 50 cycles today and they confirmed that the pr connect S is not restricted.
Thanks overlander. I was quite sure it wasn't since that would only have duplicated the existing Pro Connect.

50cycles sell it since they supply certain overseas markets where no Kalkhoff agency exists and it's be legal in the UK in private land use, on large private estates etc.
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,282
2,252
69
Sevenoaks Kent
Very different bikes.

Hi Scott, and thanks Flecc for letting me know about this thread.

I will be as unbiased as I possibly can be considering my position! :)

The Kalkhoff and Wisper bikes are very different animals, both very well made using many high quality Far Eastern components, the Kalkhoff is constructed in Germany and the Wisper in Shanghai. Chinese components shouldn't cause concern as long as they are of high quality, indeed most of the best computers, mobile phones, televisions, cameras etc are made using components made in China and in most cases are built there.

There are several important points to consider when making a choice between these bikes. The way the power is supplied to the wheels, the battery size/range and the frame sizes being the most important. These are all areas where bike choice is down to the riders preferences. I will try to explain the differences;

Frame size Kalkhoff certainly has a lot more choice than Wisper. The Wisper frame has a longer wheel base than most medium sized frames and because of the attention we have spent on the handlebars and the way they can be adjusted the Wisper really can suit most sizes. However for the very tall or short I would certainly try a small or large Kalkhoff before you buy.

Battery size/range Wisper has a choice of the very large capacity 518Wh Lithium Polymer battery or the smaller (and £200.00 less expensive) 296Wh version. Kalkhoff uses a very good but smaller 260Wh Lithium Ion battery. The ranges of the bikes approximately work out to 1 mile per 10Wh. The choice is whether you need the long range or not. If not the Kalkhoff or smaller Wisper battery are about the same.

The way the power is supplied to the wheels This arguably the biggest difference.

Kalkhoff use a superb complexed Panasonic torque sensor system with the drive though the chain. The use of a torque sensor means that when you press down on the pedals the bike recognises the amount of effort you are exerting pushing the pedal down and rewards you with an adjustable amount of help in return. It also means that the effort of both the rider and motor is through the gear system and better hill climbing is possible.

Wisper uses a far more simple system. The drive is through a hub motor that is placed in the rear wheel of the bike it is controlled by a cadence sensor to turn the motor on. There is a High/Low range switch that sets the starting point for the amount of power introduced when the motor first starts to assist and a throttle which finely adjusts the amount of power the rider requires in any particular circumstance from 40% to 100%. In essence the rider, not the bike control the amount of help given to the rider by the motor. At the moment in the UK the throttle is able to propel the bike without the pedals being turned at all, however this is likely to end soon and the EU standard of the throttle only being usable when the pedals are turning (even though there is no force being exerted on the pedals) is introduced.

All this being said, I honestly believe the only way to decide is by giving both (and other) bikes a good test ride for at least and hour or so. In our dealers experience the split of prefference between the torque sensor and throttle control is about 50/50 so it is very personal.

Good luck in your choice. Please email me at miall@aol.com and I will give you the adress of your nearest Wisper retailer.

Best regards David
 

Dynamic Position

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 28, 2009
307
2
S-class e-bicycles providing they conform to ECWVTA harmonised technical requirements have type approval Category L1e (since 16th June 2003).
Kalkhoff S-class bicycles are road legal providing a speedometer is fitted and the rider holds an appropriate driving licence.
Technically it could be argued that any L1e licence holding cyclist using an s-class bicycle in the UK is breaking the law, but the courts would apply any EU requirments when shown that UK legislation is lagging!
For anyone adapting an existing bicycle beyond current UK requirements, Flecc is right in that type approval will need to be obtained from:

The Vehicle Certification Agency
1 The Eastgate Office Centre
Eastgate Road
Bristol BS5 6XX
Telephone +44 (0) 117 952 4144

:D
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
Technically it could be argued that any L1e licence holding cyclist using an s-class bicycle in the UK is breaking the law, but the courts would apply any EU requirments when shown that UK legislation is lagging!
That's as I've previously stated the driving licence situation for these in this thread.

So as not to mislead anyone into thinking these can be ridden as they are, an S class pedelec must conform to all the following electric moped provisions to be legal on the road:

Electric scooters are exempt from vehicle tax but must still display a tax disc – this is issued free of charge and will need to be renewed each year.

Like all road vehicles, electric scooters must be registered with the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) and display number plates.

Every vehicle in the UK that is more than three years old needs an MOT test and electric scooters are no exception. This will cover all the standard tests for a motorcycle.
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eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Just dont assume that if something is for sale in the UK it must be legal. This is clearly not the case, as in law you can sell more or less whatever you want and that is fine but to use it is may be illegal..........

By examplem companies import oversize american RV's illegal for use on our roads....They can do this quite legally but if you are stupid enough to buy one you cant register and use it. You would think you would be covered in a court case but a chap spent literally in excess of £100.000 before finding out he was stuffed.....
 

overlander

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 22, 2009
532
42
Fantastic post flecc,

Thanks for the clear concise explanation that has helped me make my mind up. I was toying with the idea of the connect s but it really is not worth it. I know the chances of getting pulled over are almost non existent BUT if something happened then that is different. If it was a serious accident they would be over the bike with a magnifying glass. If you need that speed just get a moped or scooter.
 

Dynamic Position

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 28, 2009
307
2
S-class e-bicycles providing they conform to ECWVTA harmonised technical requirements have type approval Category L1e (since 16th June 2003).
Kalkhoff S-class bicycles are road legal providing a speedometer is fitted and the rider holds an appropriate driving licence.
Technically it could be argued that any L1e licence holding cyclist using an s-class bicycle in the UK is breaking the law, but the courts would apply any EU requirments when shown that UK legislation is lagging!
For anyone adapting an existing bicycle beyond current UK requirements, Flecc is right in that type approval will need to be obtained from:

The Vehicle Certification Agency
1 The Eastgate Office Centre
Eastgate Road
Bristol BS5 6XX
Telephone +44 (0) 117 952 4144

:D
The European Directives are in place to promote movement of goods and free trade. Having been tested to meet the european requirments by any national government agency, all other european governments cannot refuse to allow the same item within its own borders. The UK government is obliged to accept goods that have been manufactured which meet the EC requirements.

The Kalkhoff s-class bicycle is one bicycle which meets this criteria, however to be road legal it must be as my last post.

If the Kalkhoff s-class bicycle were to be modified from the (3rd-party approved testhouse condition) ECWVTA harmonised technical requirements then it would cease to be road legal and would require to be re-tested (by the Vehicle Certification Agency in the UK).

If the s-class Kalkhoff bicycle has the throttle accessory installed it would cease to be road legal unless its speed was restricted to 15mph: If the UK VCA were to test an s-class Kalkhoff bicycle with the throtle attatched it might get classed as an e-moped, but as it would not meet the ECWVTA harmonised technical requirements it would have to adhere strictly to UK requirements (as Flecc's posts) and it might not be legally usable in europe!

The same rules apply to other electric bicycles. The 250W electric motors are only legal because of the ECWVTA being in place. To be road legal without without the help of EU laws, either the electric motor must be restricted to 200W or it must comply with the national legal requirements of the country in which the electic bicycle is to be used.

The government will eventually get round to bringing existing UK law into line with the harmonised requirements. They may also follow the German or Swiss lead with respect to the other requirements, but until they do so it would be wise not to spoil a good thing.
 

overlander

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 22, 2009
532
42
Hi Dynamic Position,

Very interesting posts, but as a summary are you saying they are currently illegal but could be made legal in the future.

I might have picked you up wrong :)

When you say do not spoil a good thing do you mean we should not use the connect s?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
Hi Dynamic Position,

Very interesting posts, but as a summary are you saying they are currently illegal but could be made legal in the future.

I might have picked you up wrong :)

When you say do not spoil a good thing do you mean we should not use the connect s?
As Dynamic Position isn't online at the moment, I'll chip in to say the S series with the optional models is definitely illegal as he says, since that takes it outside the standards with throttle control to around 13 mph possible.

A standard S model without the optional throttle is technically legal so long as it's fitted with a speedometer and the rider holds the relevant driving licence, is insured for third party risks, and the bike meets all the legal requirements listed in my previous post. Treated as a moped in other words, since all the necessary domestic legislation isn't yet in place to allow us to enjoy the full benefit of EU harmonisation.

In practice though, there might be practical problems. In attempting registration with the DVLA, the lack of a UK type approval might be a stumbling block. Getting third party insurance for a vehicle new to our insurance industry could be difficult. There's always the possibility of a prosecution attempt, requiring you to prove the S bike meets EU standards and show this must be accepted by a UK court, and that could be a difficult, expensive and time consuming process.

Although technically not necessary with an absolutely standard S bike, probably the simplest way to forestall those possible UK problems is to get a single vehicle type approval as a moped at the cost of £78 since that would prevent any registration or legal problems and make it easy for an insurance company to meet your need for low cost third party insurance.

Or just buy a moped! :D
.
 
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overlander

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 22, 2009
532
42
Too complicated after all the whole idea is to get fit. Would not ride a moped as i think unless its in slow moving traffic they quickly get out of their comfort zone. By the time you get up to the 250 scooters they are silly money.
 

sjoroveren

Finding my (electric) wheels
May 12, 2008
13
0
AFAIK the throttle does still work without pedalling on the 2009 models as the UK law still does not require you to pedal.....

My 2008 model would not work without pedalling but that was 'accidental' and simply meant parting a single connector near the controller to restore full function. For warranty reasons David or one of his guys should advise you on this if it becomes necessary - you shouldn't believe anything more specific I may be tempted to tell you, so I won't!

It's likely you won't need to do anything though.

Rog.
Hi

I have a 905 SE with throttle that it is not legal in Italy, at the moment it is not important, the bike doesn't work at all and I am waiting for spare part to try to repair it, after 1 year out of use.
If finally the 905 SE will work I would like to continue to use the throttle, but in a legal way, only with pedaling.
Could you tell me ( or maybe Wisper could? ) how to obtain this result, that was a mistake on your bike, but that would be very useful for me in Italy.

I would like to ask you if the bike worked well without the "free pedaling" throttle, or did this influence other things, as the power or something like that?

Thanks
 

rog_london

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2009
764
2
Harrow, Middlesex
Hi

I have a 905 SE with throttle that it is not legal in Italy, at the moment it is not important, the bike doesn't work at all and I am waiting for spare part to try to repair it, after 1 year out of use.
If finally the 905 SE will work I would like to continue to use the throttle, but in a legal way, only with pedaling.
Could you tell me ( or maybe Wisper could? ) how to obtain this result, that was a mistake on your bike, but that would be very useful for me in Italy.

I would like to ask you if the bike worked well without the "free pedaling" throttle, or did this influence other things, as the power or something like that?

Thanks
I have PM-ed you....

Rog.
 

dodgyal

Pedelecer
Jul 16, 2008
50
0
I've just put my 2008 wisper 905 SE Sport for sale on ebay if your interested. Check out the classifieds section.